NWN2 JE Sawyer on Romance

Thisn't specific to NWN2, since he came in too late to have a bearing on that, but he has some comments on it in CRPG's in a thread on the Obsidian forums:

I don't hate love in game stories; I just hate reducing love to shallow, masturbatory fantasy indulgence. Maybe that's all love is to some people, but I think that's a pretty narrow view. Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.

I appreciate that people wanted more romance options in NWN2, but sometimes I think that people want there to be romance "victory" conditions for all companions. I think that can diminish some characters. For instance, if Shandra and Qara had their own romance plots, I think some people would still want Neeshka to be "romance-able", regardless of how Neeshka's author felt about the character's place in the story.

That bugs me. I don't like the idea that you can "win" everything or get everyone on your side. I'm also not fond of the idea that romance always has to resolve with a "fade out" to implied coitus, but that's another issue.

I'll re-state what I wrote before: I want romance to receive either less or more attention in games. Anything worth doing is worth doing well, especially when it's something with so much emotional potential. But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime, which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.

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I like romances in RPG, but more in the sense of 'relationship building' rather than '7 steps to bedding your elf'. So I like that Bastilla stands with you in KotOR, and that you can take Jaheira through the final battle of BG2: ToB and beyond.

Thanks for this.

Did JE Sawyer have anythig to do with romances KotOR or BG2, just asking since I am not sure.

I need to read the full thread and I haven't had time but sometimes JE Sawyer seems annoying.
I think it's great he has idea's he wants to explore, problem is of course the current system isn't perfect we all know that and the reason people want all NPCs to be available, whether it's women wanting all the guys to possibly be availble as would the guys want the girls to be availble, it's part of the game.
Romances are considered mini games and if some writers want to end with badda boom and others don't that seems perfectly fine.
No ones has ever said they have to be the same, people (gals and guys) just want the options

The idea that he complains about ego rubbing in games seems nutz, what the hell is the whole savior of the village, city, realm, world, dimension and galaxies?
All of sudden the fact that I have more POWER than anyone else in the known game and just because gamers are intrested in Romaces, we are talking thousands of threads here on all known gaming forums, it's no go because it's not realistic or believable enough?
And who are these people having Romances that don't get Badda Boom is this some new trend were in RL people meet and when attracked to each other they go killing sprees to showthere affection?

Acleacius said:

some new trend were in RL people meet and when attracked to each other they go killing sprees to showthere affection?

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You mean this *isn't* how it happens ... hmmm ... looks like I better talk to the wife about where the kids came from ...

The point he misses, is that restricting a romance to one NPC is counter-productive. In NWN2 it's the druid, fine; except a lot of people seem to dislike her, so there goes the entire option. What if I were playing a druid? I'd never use the char!! There needs to be 2 or 3 options to cater to both character types and player types!!

Very true Corwin ... besides I've always had a thing for chicks with horns you can hold onto while she's down there

Oookay...

But what if you want to cheat on a companion with another one? Why can't I do that??

Catfiiight!

Corwin said:

The point he misses, is that restricting a romance to one NPC is counter-productive. In NWN2 it's the druid, fine; except a lot of people seem to dislike her, so there goes the entire option. What if I were playing a druid? I'd never use the char!! There needs to be 2 or 3 options to cater to both character types and player types!!

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If you traverse the thread, you'll see that he doesn't miss that point - in fact, he thinks that the developers missed it! His point is that the 'i am teh w1nn3r' mentality of romance in RPG's is immature and limited.

He also says that developers need to spend either more or less time on the romace aspects - less=none for him, since he thinks they are already woefully underdeveloped.

I would have liked more options for romance and/or relationship building in NWN2 - there were enough hints that I 'got it' that Elanee was a choice, but had I not seen that I wouldn't have carted her around so much ...

Actually, if you consider hints and dialogue, [someone else] was a MUCH better and more likely candidate as well as being more 'universally' likeable!!

Remember - we're in the non-spoiler area!

But that aside, I totally agree - and by then I had entered the 'spoiler' forum at Bioware and seen a thread that id's the only possible romances in the title, so I was completely let down!

Interesting topic.
Reading that Obsidian thread reminds me why I seldom lurk over there or Bio any more, especially when the one poster reminds Sawyer he's in the entertainment biz so why shouldn't he be pandering his ass off?

Perhaps that was tongue in cheek, but the message is pretty clear--the demands of the superficial user should take precedence over the creative vision of the developers. That you have to be true to a creative vision if you are to produce anything memorable is just not understood.

I don't think anyone could make a good game this way--i.e., as a popularity contest, and that's why feedback from fanbois at this kind of level is often so destructive IMO.

And what element could be harder to develop than a good well-rounded romance, let alone several of them? In addition to making sure everything is appropriately arranged-- from dialogue that can project the personality of the various npcs to the way they progress the storyline--you have the pressure to produce credible, meaningful relationships, the scripting for realistic and in depth responses, etc. You can see why this element is most often left out, rightly or wrongly. Most people have a hard time with this in real life

love to see it happen, tho.

anyway, just some thoughts.

I think I disagree, I see it as JE Sawyer's fault, if he wants to make more complex relationships no one is stopping him he chooses not make them as effective as he wants because there are other major proiorities before complex relationships, which is why there aren't lots of them in games.
Yet he is basicly critizing other Devs and there current solutions which many have fun with reguardless if they are not the most complex relationships on the planet.

Many people on this site are very experienced gamers if not hardcore and I would bet the majority of us have spent the time to play out relationships in games not based on the complexity of them but more based on the experience much like a quest.
They can be fun, intresting and entertaining without being the gratest romance ever like any quest, well imo atm.

Well, Acleasius, I think I understand what you're saying. My interpretation of Sawyer's statement, admittedly after just a quick read-thru, was that if romance wasn't well-implemented, it was better not to do it at all. But if romance is a higher priority with you, then perhaps having some is better than having none,even if it isn't the greatest.

I still would rather have nothing than that lousy romance with the whiny paladin in BG2. Using your example of a quest, if it's broken because it wasn't implemented properly, it isn't much fun to find out half way thru that it doesn't work. What's the point of putting a romance in if it's only going to make you want to kick the character out of your party?

But I agree that romance can add something to a game, and more people should try to do it right. Just because it's hard is no reason not to try.

That's true, any quest Romance or other especially involving lots of steps and time when broken/breaks is infuriating.
I personally just view Romances as another quest, though if they do improve maybe they will be more important.
It just seems to be a common topic and since Romance is part of every culture it makes it even more difficult to satisfy everyone.
Mods go along way to solving this, as in Sith Lords and maybe KotOR they removed the gender requirements, iir allowing more possible choice in Romances.

I certainly could be misunderstanding JE Sawyer, its perfectly fine not to do something because he can't do it to his satisfaction, it's more his almost contemptuous attitude as I mentioned earlier about ego rubbing, as if the concept of town, world or galaxies is based on ego rubbing.
So with comments like that he seems to be attacking others for their attempts even though they are working with limited technologies at least they are trying.
Without their efforts, initiative, mistakes and successes there's no evidence he would ever have considered or thought of doing Romances in the first place.

It's hard to speak for someone else, so I can't say I really know what Sawyer meant. I just got the impression that he didn't think romance should be power-gamed, and that the plot cliche ego-stroking in crpgs was what he thought was excessive, meaning that the player always has to be the child of a god or powerful demon, that you always have the destiny to save the world, that you are the one that everyone in every village needs to make their life work out, etc.

Of course, if you were this Donald Trump-like person, I'm sure you would have all the 'badda boom' anyone could want, so it all fits in from that point of view.

"Mods go along way to solving this, as in Sith Lords and maybe KotOR they removed the gender requirements, iir allowing more possible choice in Romances."

You're scaring me with that one, Acleasius.

Lol, why?
Many RPGs take 30 or more hours to complete just once, if I have to look at the back of a character for that long I sure the hell don't want to be looking at some guy's butt and If I am playing a female in a game I don't want to Romance a guy.

I think if Romance is well done, it can be a lot of fun. I loved the romance in KOTOR (Carth). possibly one of the few for-female romance options I actually liked in a game.

I like romances in games. for me, relationships are important, inclusding friendship, family, and romance. And I believe a lot of RPGs skip that or only barely touch it.

Then again, I can see the problems, because romance is so personal. The NPC one person likes the other hates (I can't stand Neeshka, she really grates on my nerves, for example), and if you make all NPCs romanceable, the devs will be spending a large chunk of time on that, inevitably cutting short on other things.
Especially in an RPG like NWN2. My human female rogue will have a very different opinion of what is an acceptable mate then my female Dwarven cleric, or my little halfling wizard.
And then take into account that a group of people will want same sex romance with appropriate dialog as well, and that there are people who don't like romance in games at all, and a developer will be sticking a lot of time and money into (spoken) dialog only a very small group of people will experience.

So, while I would love to see fully fleshed out romances for every available race and alignment, I can see why that doesn't happen. Or this quite often leaves us with more generic feeling romances, or romances with NPCs we just wouldn't have picked ourselves...

You have a valid point, but offering 2 choices per gender would not be unreasonable!!

Corwin said:

You have a valid point, but offering 2 choices per gender would not be unreasonable!!

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that is very true, and what also annoys me if male characters get more options then females. That always really reminds me of how male-orientated this industry still is...

Actually, I thought the females got 2 and the males only 1!!

Sorcha Ravenlock said:

that is very true, and what also annoys me if male characters get more options then females. That always really reminds me of how male-orientated this industry still is...

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I think that the quest-nature of romance and the direct transition to implied coitis also reflect much on the maturity of the game dev community ...