Grimoire - Crowdfunding campaign at indiegogo

[Brother None]

Well, if you trust his word then pledging could be wise because of extra goodies or a lower pricepoint. I dunno what his sale price would be though. So there's some reason to do it, but only if you trust Cleve's word.

 

[rune_74]

It can assume it's not a hoax. Who is to say it's not vaporware? He's never been able to bring himself to finish and release the game. What guarantee or even indication do I have that raising money will get him over the hump?

And this is hardly the first time we've had a release date, so I'm not following you there. Cleve has announced and then missed a bunch of release dates already. Why would this one be any different?

It cannot be considered vaporware if people have played the actual game. More I think he just doesn't ever consider it finished so he keeps going back to polish this or that. He has no one to say thats it get it out the door.

 

[Brother None]

It cannot be considered vaporware if people have played the actual game.

Huh? Plenty of games made it into a playable state, were played, but never released. If it's never released or cancelled, it's still vaporware.

More I think he just doesn't ever consider it finished so he keeps going back to polish this or that. He has no one to say thats it get it out the door.

Yeah, I know. We all know. It doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that there's no reason to trust him, or to believe giving him money actually makes a release more likely.

 

[HiddenX]

And this is hardly the first time we've had a release date, so I'm not following you there. Cleve has announced and then missed a bunch of release dates already. Why would this one be any different?

The difference this time: If he's not releasing the game around May 2013 he would be a betrayer, because then he would embezzle real money.
(Unless he gives the money back).

I pledged for Grimoire:
a) to support Cleve
b) to encourage him not to make a backdown this time

 

[Drithius]

If you work on a project for 17 years, you do so as a hobby out of love for the medium. If you then suddenly run a donation campaign when your project is 95% done instead of simply releasing it for purchase, those actions just scream of cutting one's losses and washing one's hands of it all.

That's my take anyway. Even without the guy's erratic posts, I would still be leery of the above antics.

 

[HiddenX]

Cleve on the 'Codex:

I can't manage myself for sh*t. My desperate attempts to do so over time have consisted of setting deadlines for myself with Grimoire, making them public and then hoping the pending deadline will drive me to finish within that time frame. What I needed was to be constantly reminded I have users. This is the only thing that is going to organize me to complete something, I know because I have been contracting for thirty years
…
I don't have some kind of game I am running. It is exactly what it sounds like. People are now contributing money to pay in advance for Grimoire to be completed in May 2013. It could not be any simpler. I am now obligated to complete it. It was a good plan and people will see that soon and there will be a lot more players realizing this will be the only chance they ever get for physical media and tokens from the game.

So it comes all down to trust...

 

[Thrasher]

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1061160213&postcount=20

Well said Pladio.

I believe him when he says this will make him more motivated to finish. But will it be enough? I have no evidence except his own word.

 

[Pladio]

Cleve on the 'Codex:


So it comes all down to trust…

Exactly.

And why would you trust someone who has lied multiple times over the past ten years or more ?

 

[HiddenX]

And why would you trust someone who has lied multiple times over the past ten years or more ?

I've the feeling that he is commited this time to release the game. It's a gut feel based on the statements Cleve made the last months.

 

[rossrjensen]

Overlooking the fact that this guy attacked me and said I would die in flames of Hellfire, it isn't my type of game and I don't think it looks that good either.

 

[CrazyIrish]

Overlooking the fact that this guy attacked me and said I would die in flames of Hellfire, it isn't my type of game and I don't think it looks that good either.

It IS my type of game, but its appearance does lead to one question...Why the heck do pretty much all new "old school" games look significantly worse than actual old school games? A quick browsing of various sites shows that pixel art is alive and well? So why do almost all of these games look like butt? Especially ones where the developer(s) claim to have spent significant cash on the art.

 

[rune_74]

Simple, art is expensive and for games you need a lot of it.

 

[HiddenX]

Wizardry 6 looks like shit since release date - still one of my favorite games (played it 3 times) - nice graphics are cool, but there are not a vital necessity for a good dungeon crawler.

 

[holeraw]

Good visual aesthetics cannot be anything but essential in a primarily visual medium.
If you're going to be looking at it for 600 hours then it'd better not be an eyesore!

(That said my idea of what looks good seems to be fundamentally different to most people's, who seem to mostly equate good looks with expensive 3D, and I think this one looks fine)

 

[Corwin]

I've the feeling that he is commited this time to release the game. It's a gut feel based on the statements Cleve made the last months.

The problem is that I had the exact same feeling after interviewing him inside his bunker several years ago when he told me to my face that it would be released within a year. The game was at least 90% finished then and I've completed it twice!!

 

[Janus]

Call me crazy, but I withdrew my pledge to Brenda and Tom's 'Old school RPG' in favor of this one. It's not that I couldn't afford to support both, but after watching Cleve's madman pitch, I realized what had bothered me about their video: Authenticity. While Cleve sounds like an authentic madman with a (maybe flawed) creative vision, Brenda and Tom are just trying too hard to play the indie oldschool card. All I can see is bad acting. Maybe they haven't been indie for such a long time, that they don't even remember how it feels to be persuing a real creative vision. Anyway, their video looks like some marketing guys imagining how an indie game should be promoted - and failing badly. To be honest, to a lesser extend I got a similar feeling from the Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity campaigns, but I'm still glad I supported those since I'm confident they are capable of producing decent games. And those are rare these days.

With reagard to Cleve, I do agree that his track record doesn't inspire confidence. But i figure that pledging for a nearly completed project by a loonatic who has proven that finishing it up is not exactly his strong suit, is not much more risky than pledging for some guys who have a decent track record but are pretty much just presenting ideas and promises (and imho not very inspiring ones) for a game not yet in development.

 

[Pladio]

I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the people who haven't lied yet.

Edit : ... Multiple times.

 

[rune_74]

I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the people who haven't lied yet.

Edit : … Multiple times.

It seems kinda harsh to call missing a release date lying. It's easy to stand there and say you should have done this but I'm willing to bet there is more to the story then some random internet guys opinion.

 

[Pladio]

It seems kinda harsh to call missing a release date lying. It's easy to stand there and say you should have done this but I'm willing to bet there is more to the story then some random internet guys opinion.

Bold+Underline by me.

Yeah, I would have agreed with you completely. Except for several things, which I did outline in the post I linked to.
1. It's multiple times (at least 4 times I can remember)
1.2. This also includes the fact that Cleve said himself that he just could not be motivated to finish the game before, because he did not know whether or not people would want to buy it. He said he wanted the kickstarter to see if people would buy the game. AND only then would he release it. -> So, basically, he was putting up dates knowing full well that he would miss them everytime (or at least after the first couple)
2. He managed to burn every friendly bridge he had who used to basically advertise for him like Corwin and dte/bn(?)
3. He actually could not bring himself to apologise for not releasing when he said he would and just ignore it
3.2. He even got pissed off when people reminded him of the fact and kept explaining what a great achievement he had made by working continuously on a game for 17 years
4. He said that it cost him 250k to make the game, but hasn't detailed what he means by it. If I counted the man-days I put into things at the rate I'm charged by my firm then that's easy to do. If I'm talking about actual money put into the project, that's entirely different.
5+. http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1061160213&postcount=20

 

[JDR13]

With reagard to Cleve, I do agree that his track record doesn't inspire confidence. But i figure that pledging for a nearly completed project by a loonatic who has proven that finishing it up is not exactly his strong suit, is not much more risky than pledging for some guys who have a decent track record but are pretty much just presenting ideas and promises (and imho not very inspiring ones) for a game not yet in development.

I hope you enjoyed throwing your money away.