Non-RPG General News - Chris Avellone responds to Accusations in 2020

[rune_74]

lol both sides, fine people

What?

 

[Philistine]

Siri, why don't more women participate in gaming forums?




The majority of male posters on this forum probably wince when they read comments like the above. For women, that one post can cancel out all those good posters, it glares out at us, reminding us to know our place, daring us to react, knowing we're going to be accused of being over sensitive or of siding with each other because we're women.

I'm not leaving (not that I say very much) and I don't want Nerida to leave either, I enjoy her posts.

My comment was not critical of women, only a reminder that women CAN do and say evil things, just as men can.

 

[Hexprone]

What?

Eh...

 

[Carnifex]

That was a horrific article that you posted, Hexprone. Tis a shame such things can actually happen these days, and a pure cautionary tale that even law enforcement can get some serious lemons into their ranks.

 

[Qayto]

I'm sorry but why must we automatically believe the claimants that go straight to the press/social media and not the police? I'm 100% supportive of woman who have been involved in any abusive situations that should be prosecuted. The problem I have is so many people want to try and hang without any discovery if the case is actually true.

Human nature is a beats at times and unfortunately not everyone is honest out there. By all means investigate and charge if necessary but please actually do this instead of letting the mob justice prevail where there are little facts to actually use other then what the claiment said.

My issue was with the 100% belief in innocence and the old gendered trope about some accusers being bitches. That trope is one of the biggest blocks to women coming forward or even for people to discuss ways forward in this problematic social media driven mess we're trying to navigate.

If I have understood the situation correctly, Avellone was dismissed from his work before any investigation took place. This is not fair on any of the parties involved. It's added in a murky level of complexity that didn't need to be there. An early investigation might have given clarity to the situation and avoided the trial by social media.

 

[dteowner]

My issue was with the 100% belief in innocence and the old gendered trope about some accusers being bitches. That trope is one of the biggest blocks to women coming forward or even for people to discuss ways forward in this problematic social media driven mess we're trying to navigate.

Yet you seem fine with the old gendered trope about all men being sexual predators on the hunt.

 

[Ripper]

In one sense, the cancellation of people because of reputational issues is nothing new. Hollywood has had "morality clauses" in place since the 1920s, where if an actor's reputation was tarnished and they didn't want the name to affect the movie, they could fire them with no foul. In those days, probably some newspaper stories about someone smoking the reefer and consorting with ladies of the night would have done the trick.

I think the issue with social media is that the reputational harm can potentially ruin someone with a single tweet, with very little recourse. Like I mentioned, I don't think there's anything wrong with people saying their piece online, we just need to re-calibrate how we react it.

 

[Qayto]

Yet you seem fine with the old gendered trope about all men being sexual predators on the hunt.

Am I? Where?

 

[dteowner]

Am I? Where?

Not necessarily you personally, but many on that side of the discussion. My apologies for an admitted lack of precision.

 

[Couchpotato]

What?

He's just shit-posting to rile people up. Ignore him.

Also we have a thread from last year on this topic as well.

Link - https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45423

 

[lackblogger]

If I have understood the situation correctly, Avellone was dismissed from his work before any investigation took place. This is not fair on any of the parties involved. It's added in a murky level of complexity that didn't need to be there. An early investigation might have given clarity to the situation and avoided the trial by social media.

The problem, as with most things, is that the solution is a gigantic over-recorrection.

Yes, we have a situation where society has historically made it hard for women to come forward with allegations of traumatic experiences, where the trauma of trial and the inherent investigation compound the trauma rather than necessarily act as justice.

The answer to that situation is not to execute any male who any female accuses without trial. That should be blindingly obvious.

I'm not entirely sure what the answer is, but what I hear day-after-day is, firstly, ever more appeals to reduce the investigative element and, secondly, to ever widen the reach of what is defined as a sex crime.

And while I don't know the answer to the problem put forward, I know for absolute sure that the current trend of those 'winning' the solution battle at this point in time are putting forward completely untenable and extremely totalitarian proposals that, quite frankly, shit in the face of the kind of democratic justice that is supposed to make the world a 'better' place.

Only yesterday a female was complaining in an interview that women have their mobile phones taken from them and their messages checked if they are making a case against someone.

For the love of christ, of course that's what happens, that's called an investigation, the police will want to know what dealings you've had with the person you're accusing. Of course the accused wouldn't necessarily have their phone immediately checked, because they could be completely innocent of that particular incident but have other unrelated information on their phone.

As the accuser you are casting the first stone, and so are putting yourself forward for exposure, you are wanting your phone looked at because there should be something incriminating on there to use against the accused unless it was a case of an unknown assailant. If you have anything you didn't want the police to see, then surely you'd have wiped that information before giving it to the police. You'd have to go into it with some sense of preparedness.

Surely there's only so much you can do to protect people who are so inherently naïve that they literally cannot cope with the most basic aspects of life planning and personal control. And, no, this isn't to make an implication towards all claimants, but just to say that those cases which are most serious will not benefit from being watered down, both in time and expense, with the courts making cases every single time a woman feels slighted or finds themselves in an 'awkward' situation.

There has to be some kind of rational scale. I mean, if I was wronged by someone and I wanted to nail them for it, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be all-in from the moment I decided to go to the coppers. Why it is some women suffer from 'I've changed my mind'itis' as soon as someone makes the process even slightly hard is completely beyond me. Don't such women have any balls!!! [pun both intended and not intended]

It's not about perpetuating myths, tropes, cliches or whatever, it's about the fundamentals of what makes a justice system.

If the problem arises where powerful people can make life hell for you if you choose to go at them after they've abused their power, now that's a real problem, I fully agree there should be some kind of whistle blowing system that women can use to 'anonymously' tell their story - but the place for that isn't gossip columns. It should be a serious charity that can act as a warning siren against potentially very seriously fucked up guys out there. People who know the process and can guide people through it, sort of like a Citizen's Advice Bureau.

Oh wait, that is already a thing:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/gender-violence/rape-and-sexual-assault/

If the allegation is something you wish to project as something very serious, then, obviously, your approach to prosecuting that allegation will have to be very serious. No you cannot just say "bad man did something" and then expect society to automatically bend over backwards to ensure you don't have to do anything beyond just saying that line. I mean, Really! Surely the age old trope here is "please save me! Damsel in distress!", if anything. Which is about as unfeminist as you can get! As we seem to be constructing laws as if all women are Penelope Pitstop.

 

[Moorkh]

Makes sense to move this thread to P&R, as there is no connection between this tragic tale and CRPGs apart from the fact that one of its protagonists happens to be a (formerly) prominent industry figure. It seems the newspost is still on the main page, though, and the comments available from there in all their questionable glory.

I'm not in any position to support or criticise any party in this disagreement, and I don't know if any of us are. Terrible things are happening in the world much of the time and most of us are fortunate not to be involved in any of them because, by and large, terrible things are still rather rare in the lives of many in this community. I applaud the men and women that dive into that tragedy daily not to gawp and wallow in their dubious indignation but to make visible the reality, sources, backgrounds, developments of and maybe even solutions to our world's problems.

The court of public opinion has always been a terrible place, and luckily, the burning gaze of public attention has historically been slow-moving and mainly reserved to public figures and - a lot less luckily - marginalised minorities.
For a couple centuries, the mass media have been the chief platform of public opinion, and over the years, and after many terrible mistakes, a code of conduct has been established among those media that helped to avoid making victims of the innocent. Those precautions and fail-safes were far from perfect, but I believe they were better than anything we had before.

Alas, with the rise of social media, all of that has gone out the window. When everyone is free to broadcast anything even anonymously and with little accountability, the loudest voices are bound to swim to the top of the cacophony. Who then decides what voices are further boosted? On what grounds, if not on the basis of journalistic due diligence? With what authority if not on years and years of solid reporting and steady improvement?

Twitter and co. may be useful sources for trying to unearth voices that would previously not have been heard. A vast reservoir of perspectives for a journalists to draw from. But only as a starting point for proper research. On its own, a tweet can never be news, be it from a significant games company, a powerless victim or a former president.

I really think we need to stop listening to that noise the way we currently do.

 

[JDR13]

If I have understood the situation correctly, Avellone was dismissed from his work before any investigation took place. This is not fair on any of the parties involved.

Judging by that screenshot of her reply to Techland's Twitter announcement, it seems like Karissa felt it was plenty fair.

 

[Qayto]

Not necessarily you personally, but many on that side of the discussion. My apologies for an admitted lack of precision.

Thanks. I appreciate the clarification as it truly isn't what I believe. I would have apologised and revised any ambiguous wording.

 

[Silver]

I'm probably going to ruffle some feathers but it is inevitable that having an opinion means some will like it and others will not. Indeed expressing an opinion is unavoidably insensitive to someone regardless of intent.

The woman involved posted her complaints on a Friday. She clearly didn't want an investigation to take place as everyone knows lawyers aren't available on weekends. I suppose she could of been thinking this day is as good as any other but I doubt it. She acted in a manner to cause the maximum possible damage to career and reputation. That is not to say anything about guilt or innocence but it doesn't lend credibility to the claims that is for sure.

Why people (meaning men) overlook obvious underhanded tactics is down to benevolent sexism but also due to a culture which encourages weak and docile men that will apologise and grovel at the drop of a metaphorical hat. 'Believe all woman' was and is a call for white knighting and to refuse these calls carries real world consequences through media, business and governments. This is why businesses will seek to limit their risks to negate harm to themselves. It is the inevitable reality meeting awkwardly with political rhetoric.

The rise of the Twitteratti merely reflects this culture. Some mistake their utterances as a call for politeness and civility but there are some things for which you don't apologise and the demands are getting increasingly unhinged. The societal ramifications of this Salem witch style justice has been a recipe for disaster as some people will always seek to exploit this and do profit from this. This sows division and makes things harder for real victims of sexism, racism etc. If you care about real justice it is imperative that you reject such culture and encourage lawfulness otherwise there is only the law of the jungle.

 

[Stingray]

The woman involved posted her complaints on a Friday. She clearly didn't want an investigation to take place as everyone knows lawyers aren't available on weekends. I suppose she could of been thinking this day is as good as any other but I doubt it. She acted in a manner to cause the maximum possible damage to career and reputation. That is not to say anything about guilt or innocence but it doesn't lend credibility to the claims that is for sure.

Personally, I thought the whole "Friday" thing was the weakest part of Avellone's blog post. I think we can be fairly certain that these companies wouldn't have bothered to look into it (in any meaningful way) even if the allegation had been posted at 9AM Monday. Firing people based entirely on unverified/unverifiable claims posted on Twitter is completely disgusting and I'm so glad I'm not tempted to buy any Techland products (because they make nothing that interests me, fortunately :lol.

Otherwise, spot on.

 

[Silver]

Personally, I thought the whole "Friday" thing was the weakest part of Avellone's blog post. I think we can be fairly certain that these companies wouldn't have bothered to look into it (in any meaningful way) even if the allegation had been posted at 9AM Monday. Firing people based entirely on unverified/unverifiable claims posted on Twitter is completely disgusting and I'm so glad I'm not tempted to buy any Techland products (because they make nothing that interests me, fortunately :lol.

Otherwise, spot on.

Legally speaking you are right. Merely posting this on Twitter speaks volumes as it is. It will be interesting to see where things go from here.

 

[Ripper]

I think one of the key points relates to what some folks have mentioned - that sexual crimes are, by their nature, very difficult to prove in court. It seems to me there must be many victims out there who have been assaulted, but are told by police that there is not enough evidence to proceed, and by lawyers that there isn't a strong enough case. They may be unable to prove the truth to a legal standard, but still want to speak about what actually happened to them. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that people should remain silent in those circumstances.

It's a complex and difficult situation, and we've just got to learn to respond to it in a more nuanced and thoughtful way.

 

[Capt. Huggy Face]

I'm sure Twitter will become a place full of thoughtful nuance real soon. By its design, it almost can't be -- all the nuance you can fit into 140 characters, or whatever the hell it is, all the nuance afforded by those who voluntarily choose to be the "followers" of the superficial, electronically preening their electronic reputations for whatever personal reason and agrandizement, pandering to whatever emotional appeal will generate the most energy from the brain-dead batteries powering The Matrix.

It's an electronic water cooler in the office that streamlines the superficial, perfecting all that is worst in rumor mills. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Twitter to change. That's a bit like expecting human nature to change. It could happen, but I wouldn't bet on it, and you better be playing a real long game. People could abandon it, but they'd just find another kind of water cooler like they always do. Removing anonymity would help. Twitter would be a lot more like a regular water cooler then, though still different in its size and reach.

But how much fun would the Internet be then? And Twitter sure as hell won't volunteer for removing anonymity. Calm, rational discussion in inevitably lower volume, in both senses of the word, wouldn't help their business model much.

 

[Morrandir]

If the problem arises where powerful people can make life hell for you if you choose to go at them after they've abused their power, now that's a real problem, I fully agree there should be some kind of whistle blowing system that women can use to 'anonymously' tell their story - but the place for that isn't gossip columns. It should be a serious charity that can act as a warning siren against potentially very seriously fucked up guys out there. People who know the process and can guide people through it, sort of like a Citizen's Advice Bureau.

Oh wait, that is already a thing:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/gender-violence/rape-and-sexual-assault/

That's actually great... I think.
Is there any (anonymous) feedback from victims or organizations if the service helped them somehow?