A different approach to asking what in an RPG

[lackblogger]

A different approach to asking what is an RPG

It's very difficult to talk about RPGs without someone at some point getting all entangled in the What Is An RPG? spider's web of that definition and the exact shading of that definition.

In this thread I'd like to take this conversation down a different path and try to approach the conversation from a more already defined and 'real' perspective than people just waxing lyrical about what their ideal game might or might not be.

For this thread I'd like people to scour their memories and supply one real and already existing computer RPG which they themselves feel came closest to what they imagine an ideal computer RPG to be. Just one game. No "this one was good at this but that one was good at that", just one game you felt came most closest to giving you a complete RPG experience.

Also, much as we love lists, it would be great if you elaborate on why that particular game features so prominently in your mind as the ideal. Likewise, if you feel you've never played an RPG which really satisfies your RPG cravings in any real way, try to give an actual real example of something that actually exists that made you want that thing that you can't find.

 

[Maylander]

Just one game eh? That's a tough one! The natural thing for me would be to mix'n match elements from different games.

However, I'll play by the rules. My one game is: Might & Magic VII: For Blood and Honor.

To me, it offers the complete RPG experience: You get to create the lead characters yourself (lots of freedom), including race, sex and a very detailed skill system. Once the characters are created, and you get past the intro part, you're released into a massive, open world (with lots of hand placed loot!) where you can go wherever and do whatever, yet it still has a strong story and lots of quests to drive you forward. On top of that, it even has impactful C&C as the leader of Harmondale.

In short: It has every element that, to me, defines what an RPG is.

 

[ChienAboyeur]

Beside giving in that real stuff, the question is flawed from the start.

It relies on the belief that a perfect, ideal RPG has been produced when porting RPG genre is a work in progress.

Like asking which FIFA is the perfect, ideal football game.

 

[Dragonfly]

Good question. I've just written something about this on a different website the other week. What got me hooked on RPGs the first time was the atmosphere, the feeling. I came straight from my bookshelf and discovered a game, that let me "live" all those adventures from fantasy novels.
Going on desperate journeys to save a person, a country, or even an entire world. Fighting pursuers who are trying to kill me, just to keep me from succeeding. But also hunting for legendary treasures like magic weapons, with nothing but a vague rumor to guide me. Always on a stony road, with or without a bunch of friends. And that feeling of relieve when I come back to a settlement, low on potions and tired of the countless battles I've fought, but I never take a long rest, because adventure is calling again.

My first contact with RPGs on the computer was the demo of "Albion" by Bluebyte (now only known for "The Settlers"), which was also my first contact with severe motion sickness, so I never got far. After that, my brother bought "Shadows over Riva", and we were both hooked immediately. All those traits I've described before, there they were. It was magical.

My personal RPG paradise? Hard to tell. I think, Morrowind's closest. Though it doesn't offer me the option to take some NPCs with me to have that friends on the road feeling, there are so many adventures waiting there. So many treasures to find. And, apart from the later parts of the series, most of those treasures deserve their name, because there's no level scaling.
Other almost perfect games are, to me, the "Realms of Arcania" series, "Arcanum", and the "Baldur's Gate" series.

There are many other RPGs I love, and I have come to enjoy many different types of them, but those were some of my first, and I love them the most. Sure I like choices and consequences, and creative types of quests. I love to discover my options, but that's what's got me hooked and will alway be most important to me: the feeling of an adventurous journey.

 

[Ivanwah]

Beside giving in that real stuff, the question is flawed from the start.

It relies on the belief that a perfect, ideal RPG has been produced when porting RPG genre is a work in progress.

Like asking which FIFA is the perfect, ideal football game.

Except it doesn't. It asks what game, in our opinion, CAME CLOSEST TO that ideal. Not which one IS ideal.

I will answer this later, I have to think about it a bit more or I'll end up mentioning more than one game.

 

[Eye]

Easy. Gothic 2.

It was the first RPG I played? And it seemed impossible to shut down the PC and go to bed?
I remember the music, my heart pounding, the tension in my throat, darkness all around me, because it was 4 o'clock in the morning.
I wanted to fight better, I needed to learn certain skills, I wanted to destroy certain enemies, o, and what was lurking over there? What treasures were waiting for me in that area? Who would I meet when I'd go to that place and what would they tell me? I needed to know. On and on, more, more!

The game made me forget the real world. I felt involved. I felt part of the game. All the different aspects of the game were overwhelming, to mind and heart. I had never experienced anything like that before in a game. I had never felt so much while playing a game. I had never felt so alive when playing a game.

 

[lostforever]

I have been thinking about this for couple of hours now and I finally found the answer.

Dungeon siege 1

Yes I know! Its the first ever RPG I have played and it ticked all the boxes! I stayed up all night and finished the game in one sitting. I think it took me about good 15 hours or so. Why I think its the best RPG I have played? Well Dragonfly above describes pretty much everything I like in an RPG so I will quote him verbatim.

What got me hooked on RPGs the first time was the atmosphere, the feeling. I came straight from my bookshelf and discovered a game, that let me "live" all those adventures from fantasy novels.
Going on desperate journeys to save a person, a country, or even an entire world. Fighting pursuers who are trying to kill me, just to keep me from succeeding. But also hunting for legendary treasures like magic weapons, with nothing but a vague rumor to guide me. Always on a stony road, with or without a bunch of friends. And that feeling of relieve when I come back to a settlement, low on potions and tired of the countless battles I've fought, but I never take a long rest, because adventure is calling again.

Now Dungeon siege 1 had pretty much all the above. Now having played so many other RPGs I can see how all the above can be done better than in Dungeon siege 1 but imagine playing it for the first time! So to me Dungeon siege 1 remains the best RPG I have ever played at least for nostalgic reasons.

 

[Pladio]

I think I would have to say Gothic 1 as I felt most immersed in that world.
It's hard for me to call it the best RPG ever, but I think it has a lot of ideas that if they had all been implemented perfectly would have been it.

It is a living world, with a real-life but yet fantasy progression. Its story implements both real-world politics and religion (worship the sleeper!!!) and fantasy elements (the sleeper!!! )

It was the first RPG I played where I felt stealing wasn't simply entering someone's house in the middle of the day and taking everything, but felt like its own game. Different characters both looked and acted according to their own agendas and had their own goals (like the ambush by the diggers).

As you can tell, the above is not very structured, which is a bit what is wrong in Gothic too, but I hope it makes sense.

Gothic 1 chapter one was amazing! And unfortunately, goes downhill from there, but up to chapter 3 is still probably one of the best games I have ever played.

In short, I would say the elements that made it stand out for me were:
- A living world, where people did their own thing
- Interesting combat mechanics (for real time)
- Interesting Characters and quests (even some of the fetch quests had a twist)
- Politics and religion mixed with prison life.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

Whoa this was a hard one as I have three tied favorite RPGs (out of my top 10) and hard to narrow down to one. Especially since one is in the past and has that very strong nostalgia factor that influences my memories of it (as when I tried to replay it I didn't enjoy it like I had when it first came out). Versus a newer one which is fresh in my memory but doesn't compare to the nostalgic memories. The third is in between.

Also hard to separate my "favorite" game from the one I think came closest to my idea of an RPG (as the two would not be the same choice).

Since I have to pick just one I will go with Dragon Age Origins for the following reasons:

- I had an absolute blast playing it and re-played it a half dozen times, including add-ons.
- Was able to really sink into the game world. Felt it was immersive and believable, as much as any game is.
- Loved the companions and how they not only interacted with the main character but with other followers. That was a great touch. While not as big on voiced dialogue I did like the voices a lot and reluctantly agree it did add to the immersion and enjoyment for me personally.
- I like creating and leveling characters and I felt DAO provided enough options to do this in an interesting fashion. Each time I went up in a level I looked forward to it. I would usually spend a long time at each level trying to decide what I would want. I found each play through fairly distinct as well.
- While there are pre-generated character scenarios I thought it was done well enough that it left the player room to balance creating a custom character with a role that meshed with the pre-made role. Plus the mage package was very open being an orphan (if I recall right). I tend to like this mix a lot, if done well. It provides some hooks for the game to react to who you are as the developers can at least plan around some set options. They know you are a noble's son, or this dwarf who is on the surface, or the orphan mage. Yet you can still become a character of your own design to various degrees. A middle ground between the very open sand-box and overly linear pre-set character. For me I felt the character was still one of my own creation while also a believable part of the world.
- The CC I thought was well done (for just this game not talking about carry over to DA2 and DAI). You could live or die at the end - your choice. You had some cool options on what to follow and the world did react in some degree to those choices, as did your companions.
- Hit most of the key notes I like for this style of game: crafting, fun combat, ability to design your own character, options on leveling, exploration, companions, choice and consequence, lots of lore and background, a fun and intense story that I thought was well written for a game.

It is one of my top 3 games since I have been playing computer games.

 

[Philistine]

Mass Effect 2. C&C, companions that have lives beyond just serving you, grand adventures, awesome locations, first-person cinematic style creating my most immersive experience.

 

[Deleted User]

I would say Baldur's Gate, or Morrowind. Perhaps Icewind Dale, or even Lords of Xulima. I like huge RPGs that have a ton of stats, classes, races, etc., to play with, thus giving me the fun of finding unique and creative ways to play the game and develop my character(s). These games are also slow-paced and methodical, being something I can really savor. All of these deliver these aspects very well, except for raw length in Icewind Dale's case as it is a bit short for my tastes.

The question of "ideal RPG", though, is not an easy one for me. While I greatly enjoy the RPGs I just listed, I also had a blast with Skyrim, Final Fantasy 7, Chrono Trigger and so many others. So while the first 4 examples up there ^ I gave are more of my "ideal" RPG style, the thing I really like about myself is that I can play pretty much any RPG and get a great level of enjoyment out of it. Probably because I am able to heavily invest myself in it.

 

[purpleblob]

Baldur's Gate 2 for me (is anyone surprised? ) - it ticked all my RPG requirements and provided me with 5+ years worth of fun.
-Character development not only with stats and skill points but through NPC interactions and amazing dream sequences.
-Interesting main antagonist and NPCs with plenty of interactions. Also, it's a plus when voice actors/actresses do amazing job, and only important or first couple of lines are voiced!
-Exploration to many different locations. I don't really enjoy exploring empty random areas, and prefer visiting vivid/strange/memorable places with lots of things to do. For me, randomly activating planar sphere was an amazing experience. And Athkatla was one of the most vibrant and alive city I've ever visited in game.
-Engaging combat (especially mage duels) and good encounter designs.
-Hand placed weapons with useful abilities + well written lores/story.
-Just all the little details as well. I personally loved most of stronghold quests too, really differentiates each classes you play and provides some connections to city/relevant organisation.

EDIT: lackblogger - I can confirm BG2 is my ideal RPG as well as my most favourite

 

[Deleted User]

^ You sound like the female version of me.

 

[Zloth]

The "ideal" computer RPG?? I don't know what that even means. An RPG can have all sorts of different ways to have fun. I may be in the mood for one or another at any given time.

 

[Arkadia7]

I have to agree about the first Gothic, amazing game, the atmosphere created and the world in the game was perhaps still not surpassed...The first 2 Baldur's Gates were also landmark games, for those of us who grew up in the 1980s playing D&D, those games were like a dream come true...I still need to play the Witcher 3 seriously, instead of just goofing off within the game, running around and not doing a real play through. But I can tell you that game is also a masterpiece, and shines in many ways.

 

[crpgnut]

Totally depends on my mood. I've been playing them since they started making them, so I have decades and hundreds of titles to pick through. Can't do it. Morrowind might be the closest, but I never even finished that game. MM7 or MM3 could be the pick too, but I've played Skyrim longer than any other game ever, so do I count it instead?

I'll stick with this: Single-player, open world, magic users with first person perspective and good loot. That's the criteria that will guarantee happiness for this nut. Even in party-based games, I think of myself as the mage.

 

[Silver]

I really liked the companion quests of bg2 in terms of how much it made those characters seem alive. The writing didn't over elaborate and was concise and in person.

Content density made Athkatla feel as busy as a city should feel. The character system is detailed and there is a huge variety of interesting encounters off the beaten track that keeps you interested in the world.

The side quests for this game could be main plots of other games it is no exaggeration to say. Creature variety was extensive, the graphics and sound fit well and supported the themes of adventuring with a party. The extensive spell list made possible a variety of tactics (even the so called useless spells were useful with the right strategies).

The adventurers mart made shopping for magic gear entertaining and something to look forward to in the later game. The game itself is so packed with content it achieves a sort of quality unto itself. The bases for different classes was an interesting reward that was earned through a heroic quest like they should be. I particularly liked the Planar Sphere and getting my apprentices to construct magic items for me.

The assemblage of epic items through Cromwell is the right approach as it focuses the player on discovery of artifact items rather than busy work. Each epic item has a tale to tell and a history that is woven into the gameworld itself. The flail of ages was hidden in de'arnise keep to ward off troll invaders because it is such a powerful item. This one you can construct yourself at the keep through a magic forge which makes sense given it would need to be constructed quickly in the event of an attack. Each part of the game has been thought about in totality in terms of how it connects with each other. Fantasy realism is rarely done well but bg2 manages it nicely.

 

[purpleblob]

I still need to play the Witcher 3 seriously, instead of just goofing off within the game, running around and not doing a real play through. But I can tell you that game is also a masterpiece, and shines in many ways.

Definitely looking forward to playing Witcher 3 and I do think it will be one of my favourites from what I've seen!

 

[Deleted User]

I agree, Silver, but I do have a few things I'd improve from BG2. While Athkatla certainly felt "busy" and was a very interesting city overall, the content was delivered to the character so fast that it was almost overwhelming. Even if there wasn't a "real" time-sensitive element to most of the quests (I believe one was time-based, right?), it still made you feel a bit rushed, or at least it did me. It's kind of similar to TES: Oblivion, which has you rushing to close the Kvatch Oblivion gate so soon that it kind of just blindsides you with content at the beginning. I prefer slower-paced starts and less implication of time-sensitivity, but that is just me.

Other than that, Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 and Icewind Dale are such excellent games. I enjoyed the Bee Gees (get it, BGs?? ) for the great combination of true pen-and-paper-style gameplay + interesting story and pretty much every RPG element you could want, and Icewind Dale for more of the combat, exploration and less story but more gameplay approach. Great stuff, those games.

 

[Silver]

I agree, Silver, but I do have a few things I'd improve from BG2. While Athkatla certainly felt "busy" and was a very interesting city overall, the content was delivered to the character so fast that it was almost overwhelming. Even if there wasn't a "real" time-sensitive element to most of the quests (I believe one was time-based, right?), it still made you feel a bit rushed, or at least it did me. It's kind of similar to TES: Oblivion, which has you rushing to close the Kvatch Oblivion gate so soon that it kind of just blindsides you with content at the beginning. I prefer slower-paced starts and less implication of time-sensitivity, but that is just me.

Other than that, Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 and Icewind Dale are such excellent games. I enjoyed the Bee Gees (get it, BGs?? ) for the great combination of true pen-and-paper-style gameplay + interesting story and pretty much every RPG element you could want, and Icewind Dale for more of the combat, exploration and less story but more gameplay approach. Great stuff, those games.

The problem with the content density criticism is that companies like Obsidian take it onboard and give us Defiance Bay. Instead of introducing content density with more nuance it is just removed relatively speaking and content spread out leading to an empty feeling city. Designers are shit at understanding what their audience is trying to tell them in terms of feedback and leap to the wrong conclusions.