Avadon - Released on iPad

[GhanBuriGhan]

4000 copies?

That's quite a bit lower than I would have expected, actually.

Personally, I would have guessed Avadon sold AT LEAST 10000 copies on PC/Mac combined, and I would probably have guessed around 20000.

On sales:
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-games-i-sell.html
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-many-games-i-sell-part-two.html

On pricing:
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/04/indie-games-should-cost-more-pt-1.html
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/04/indie-games-should-cost-more-pt-2.html

And interestingly: why his games are nit on the iStore :
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/why-im-missing-iphone-gold-rush.html

 

[DArtagnan]

On sales:
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-games-i-sell.html
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-many-games-i-sell-part-two.html

On pricing:
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/04/indie-games-should-cost-more-pt-1.html
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/04/indie-games-should-cost-more-pt-2.html

And interestingly: why his games are nit on the iStore :
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/why-im-missing-iphone-gold-rush.html

But he makes a point about Geneforge 4 being one of the games selling very few copies compared to the others.

I'd be very surprised if Avadon didn't sell 10-20K on PC/Mac. We can't know, obviously, but I feel quite certain that's the case - and I'd be surprised if it doesn't end up much higher.

I know his reasoning for the low price on the iPad - and I don't think it makes sense to set it higher. Even though it totally counteracts his point about pricing games high because they last long or have more meat. It's easy to forget your principles when it will bring you more cash

I know the Apple market excuse - but in the end, it's all about what will bring him the most cash. Ironically, I think he should have realised that about his own games long ago - instead of pricing them at 25-30$. Did he ever try 15$?

I won't be able to convince you people here, but I have to say you're being blind to this guy.

He's moving towards mainstream, and he has his eyes on platforms suitable for that market. Nothing wrong with that, but at least recognise what's in front of your face

He'll probably develop a couple more "hardcore" games - and then the money will be too strong a lure. Once you start down that path…

If we can just agree that's his motive - then there's only the matter of it being "good" or "bad - and I have no interest in that. It's simply one more reason for me not to care about his games.

I'd never blame him for going for the money. I just hate it when people can't be fully upfront about it.

 

[blatantninja]

I thought he said Geneforge 4 was in the middle in terms of units sold.

 

[DArtagnan]

I thought he said Geneforge 4 was in the middle in terms of units sold.

No, he said it was an average PERFORMER - which is about what kind of return they got.

If I'm reading it correctly, the actual amount of copies sold is among the lowest. He calls it the "minimum" for success.

I could be wrong, though.

I still think Avadon is doing much better. If you combine the visual upgrade, the gameplay streamlining - and the increased word of mouth, I'd be VERY surprised if it didn't sell much better than Geneforge 4.

 

[HiddenX]

...
He's moving towards mainstream, and he has his eyes on platforms suitable for that market. Nothing wrong with that, but at least recognise what's in front of your face
...

Simply wrong. Avadon is a pure hardcore game:
+some fights last half an hour!
+for boss fights you have to develop new fighting strategies
+some secrets buttons are extreme hard to find
+deathtrap ambushes
+tough choices to make
+gear/potions do not refill in shops
+many sidequests can be overlooked easily
...

Please don't judge this game after playing just a few hours.

 

[DArtagnan]

Simply wrong. Avadon is a pure hardcore game:
+some fights last half an hour!
+for boss fights you have to develop new fighting strategies
+some secrets buttons are extreme hard to find
+deathtrap ambushes
+tough choices to make
+gear/potions do not refill in shops
+many sidequests can be overlooked easily
…

Please don't judge this game after playing just a few hours.

I'm not saying Avadon is a mainstream game - I'm just saying he's moving in that direction. I hope you're not going to deny that it's been streamlined and "polished up" compared to his past games?

Fortunately, we don't have to debate this - as we have time to tell us the truth.

Let's wait 2-3 games, and see what they look like and decide if they're mainstream?

 

[Ovenall]

What difference does it make whether or not Avadon is defined as "mainstream" by you, or other people on the board?

It's been getting good reviews as a fun RPG. The level of graphics, game detail, story size, etc., is entirely supportable for the platform, as is the touch interface. The next iPad will presumably be even more powerful and have a larger capacity. In 2011, why should you have to open a seven-pound laptop with a relatively short battery life if you want to play a Vogel RPG on an airplane, for instance?

The whole App Store is in its infancy. These devices are still relatively new. I am extremely glad that someone is at least advancing the notion that a full RPG can live on an iPad... Someone has to start the process. Hell, it was a likely risk trying to sell D&D simulation games (CRPGs) on floppy disks back in the early '80s, and I'm sure there were plenty of P&P purists scoffing at them as simplified pieces of dreck causing their hobby to go to hell.

Again, the tech will only get better, faster and leaner, and someone has to do it, even if on this generation it's a port of a version originally for PC.

At some point, things move forward and technology changes. I'd rather this guy forge ahead and make money making his kind of RPGs on an iPad platform than try to keep making these games over and over for PCs that have light years more processing power than necessary.

 

[HiddenX]

Jeff has "polished up" 4 things:

1) After a battle, when no enemy is near, health is regenerating fast
2) some quest markers to the begin of a quest
3) pre-defined companions
4) no friendly fire damage

#1) in older Spiderweb games you had to cast 1 big heal all spell - same thing
#2) only the start point of quest is shown on the map
#3) for better story telling and party quests
#4) thats the only thing I really don't like - but the fights are challenging enough

All in all a true Jeff Vogel game - trust me - I played them all more than once.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

Vogel smelled money and he went for it - good for him. But he DOES have a loyal following - and even though they might not bring him much profit, I think they deserve to be thrown a bone now and then. But that's just me.

This hypocrisy is what annoyed me about his response to critics before. Go ahead, chase after consoles and phones and casual gamers, but then don't hold out the flag of hardcore indie rpg in front of you as a shield and rail against the fans you alienated.

Real life has choice and consequences, too. He chose to chase a larger market and blow off the people who supported him in the first place, so he has no one to blame but himself.

 

[Ovenall]

Real life has choice and consequences, too. He chose to chase a larger market and blow off the people who supported him in the first place, so he has no one to blame but himself.

Laugh out loud!

So you somehow know that he will be unsuccessful in the long run selling his games on the App store? And yes, he will only have himself to "blame" for whatever happens, but the guy has a pretty good track record... so I wouldn't bet against him just yet.

And yes, I know there will be dozens (DOZENS!) of dramatic posts on gaming forums talking about how he will "never get another DIME from this hardcore PC gamer!!11!"... their fingers clicking the submit button just before they collapse to the fainting couch...

 

[txa1265]

Simply wrong. Avadon is a pure hardcore game:
+some fights last half an hour!
+for boss fights you have to develop new fighting strategies
+some secrets buttons are extreme hard to find
+deathtrap ambushes
+tough choices to make
+gear/potions do not refill in shops
+many sidequests can be overlooked easily
…

Please don't judge this game after playing just a few hours.

He has judged it all and is of course correct about everything as always and will argue until you get tired and by being last he is de facto correct. As usual.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

Laugh out loud!

So you somehow know that he will be unsuccessful in the long run selling his games on the App store? And yes, he will only have himself to "blame" for whatever happens, but the guy has a pretty good track record… so I wouldn't bet against him just yet.

And yes, I know there will be dozens (DOZENS!) of dramatic posts on gaming forums talking about how he will "never get another DIME from this hardcore PC gamer!!11!"… their fingers clicking the submit button just before they collapse to the fainting couch…

Grow up already. I never said any such thing.

Maybe he will make more money, very likely so at least in the short term (alreadyc ell phone game has changed several times). But he made a choice to follow one path, and the consequence is he can't pursue another path. But just like the sad POSes before him instead of manning up and taking responsibility he blames the fans he is leaving behind.

Do what you think is best, or will make the most money, but don't come whining that some people give your games bad reviews now or they stop pulling their punches now that they see your true colors. He gained a lot, and I mean a lot of support by people who were led to believe he wanted to make something more than typical casual gamer crap, not because he delivered, but because of the promise he might one day deliver.

So fine, don't deliver, but don't expect those people to be happy about it.

 

[Daddy32]

And yes, I know there will be dozens (DOZENS!) of dramatic posts on gaming forums talking about how he will "never get another DIME from this hardcore PC gamer!!11!"… their fingers clicking the submit button just before they collapse to the fainting couch…

Look - I'm someone you could almost call an hardcore PC gamer (though I own an smartphone and a console too) and I'm saying this without any rage - he won't be getting any money from me, while his products are unfairly priced.

If the question would be if they are hardcore enough or not - I guess demos give good answer to that. Unless he stops delivering them, blaming it on the "market" or lack control.

 

[Motoki]

He's moving towards mainstream, and he has his eyes on platforms suitable for that market. Nothing wrong with that, but at least recognise what's in front of your face

That window may not last very long though. Phone technology is evolving rapidly. We've already got phones now that have Nividia dual core processors in them and can output 1080P over HDMI. Basically a phone that doubles as a portable console.

I'd imagine that at some point the expectations for smartphone gaming will exceed what the average Joe can produce on his own with a low budget. At that point he'd have to convince some mega coporation that he's some 21st century Richard Garriott and have them buy him out so he can spend it on building castles and flying up into space and such.

 

[txa1265]

As of right now Avadon is #3 Paid iPad RPG game, ahead of Final Fantasy III, and #88 overall on the *whole* app store.

All of the anti-Apple, regressionists can just keep on with your fun hating ... but I am thrilled for Vogel for bringing such and excellent game to a wider platform.

 

[Ovenall]

Guys, he makes basically the same games over and over, with tweaks here and there over the long run.

iPad can support it. iPad will support it. I'm sure he'll be just fine without your $9.99. In fact, I hope he's wildly successful. Games need to evolve with the technology.

 

[Ovenall]

As of right now Avadon is #3 Paid iPad RPG game, ahead of Final Fantasy III, and #88 overall on the *whole* app store.

All of the anti-Apple, regressionists can just keep on with your fun hating … but I am thrilled for Vogel for bringing such and excellent game to a wider platform.

Great news. I guess he has no one to blame but himself!

Though there's at least two people who he won't be getting money from, based on their loudly proclaimed and highly principled system of deciding how to spend money on CRPGs.

 

[Badesumofu]

I agree with all you've posted here, txa. I've missed your whole game in your hand articles, but understand why you stopped putting them together. The penny dropped for me in one of the threads for Ossian's upcoming Shadow Sun. The attitude of most posters here, not all - most, was really disappointing. Sadly, I am not at all surprised by what I see here. I also recall the response when I suggested that Vince might consider an idevice port of AoD.

I love my iPhone, it's become my primary hand-held gaming platform. I am hoping to get an iPad around Christmas time. It's great to see developers bringing full-fledged RPGs to this platform, but shocking to see the reactions in places like this. A lot of old-school style games are popping up as a result of the app store, games that just can't exist as AAA games for PC in the current market. A lot of great indy developers have sprung up, and others have found a way to actually make money, have a consistent income stream that enables them operate long-term rather than just scraping by for a while then folding.

You would think that something like that is something that people here would get behind.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

Guys, he makes basically the same games over and over, with tweaks here and there over the long run.

iPad can support it. iPad will support it. I'm sure he'll be just fine without your $9.99. In fact, I hope he's wildly successful. Games need to evolve with the technology.

True but there was a time I thought his games would lead to something more, and I don't think I was the only one. The amount of rabid fans he has (or more like a few but rabid) I can only attribute to this, and the fact he is seen as the little guy. With the move to iphone and the streamlining it's obvious he's not ever going to make the big complex games I want or that many of his former fans want, just the same crap over and over forever. I realized this before now but for anyone who didn't now it's pretty clear.

 

[skavenhorde]

He needs to offer some free mini-expansion packs or something to make up the difference between the iPad game and the PC game if he wants to keep selling the PC version for $25 dollars.

I've read all the comments here and have been a big supporter of Vogel going way back to his Exile days, but this price difference is ridiculous.

He has, in the past, gone out of his way to justify the 25$ price point (and rightfully so), but now it's ten dollars just because it's on an iPad. If he wants to drop the price so much for one platform then he needs to offer something more for the PC version. Some free expansion or something that isn't available on the iPad game would be enough for me. The fact that the iPad doesn't have a demo doesn't cut it. It's not enough to justify such a huge price difference. So drop the price or offer something different for the PC version.

This has got nothing to do about Apple hate. I happen to own a iPhone and love the dang thing. It's not what I'll play at home, but when I'm out and about I'll use it. I also plan on getting the iPad 2 (or 3 if the rumors are correct) and think that it is a fun little gimmick. It's not something I plan to play at home either (except for Ossian's game), but some of the games are decent.

This is all about being fair and right now Vogel is far from being fair with his customers who use Windows.

Edit: If some of you think it is too much to ask for a free mini-expansion then may I direct your attention to a developer who did it, Vic Davis. He offered not one, but two free little expansion packs for Armageddon Empires. They weren't huge, but they did offer a few new things each time and he offered them without asking anything in return.

If Vogel did something like that for the PC version of Avadon then that would go a long way towards justifying a price difference in the two different versions. At least it would for me.