Baldur's Gate I is charming

[Relayer]

Yes, it's kind of an old game if you only count years, but it has matured like a fine wine unlike some 3d games. It only gets better as you compare it to todays' games like Fallout, Mass Effect and NWN2.

No argument here

But what's with all this BG 1 talk... BG 2 is where it's at

 

[JDR13]

Well just look at how long PC RPGs have been around and where BG1 is in that timeline and where we are now. It's definitely not modern.

I think it's still modern if you look at it that way, crpgs go back to 1975.

But what's with all this BG 1 talk… BG 2 is where it's at

Uh oh, don't get them started on BG1 vs BG2 again.

 

[Dasale]

It's clear that Fallout 1 and BG1 made a technological step forward in comparison to previous CRPG. They follow a period where less CRPG was released and their graphic quality made a huge step forward because of a higher definition and because they didn't jump into 3D like graphics. BG1 add to that another huge "technological" step forward by its more intensive use of voice actors.

That definitely make them quite more modern than all CRPG released before. Then followed a period mixing CRPG still using 2D Iso and those jumping into 3D. During this phase 3D Iso games could still had a clear edge in term of graphical appeal but 3D was clearly the future. This was a transition phase between 2D Iso and 3D. You can read the story in different way, myself I felt that Dungeon Siege has been the first clear signal that time was over for 2D Iso and KOTOR closed the tomb of 2D Iso CRPG. Not that it wasn't clear before that 3D was the future of CRPG but after those games it was clear that 2D Iso AAA games wasn't anymore possible.

And for me that's where start modern CRPG with some precursor in advance on their time, mainly Gothic 1 and 2.

So what modern CRPG I consider better than BG1 and BG2? In fact quite many, Gothic 2+NOTR, DAO, The Witcher, Mask Of the Betrayer, and even Drakensang. The point is if I find a rare charm to BG1, it has too many negative points. BG2 could make a better candidate because of the better polishing alas myself I don't remember at all that it had the same charm and I never succeed replay it for now.

For me those modern games has a much better writing with possibly the exception of Drakensang, they have much better or better fights, they have better class system, they have a much better story with possibly the exception of Drakensang, they don't suffer of a poor simple vision of Evil/Good system (even MoTB manage that quite better despite its base of D&D).

Despite the appearance I'm rather sad that there won't be any BG1 like CRPG. For me BG2 failed to be the BG1 successor with better polishing and BG1 was worth a better polishing. There's few other games that was for me on the road of BG1, I'm thinking of Avernum 1 and The Sword Land Trilogy, there's perhaps some other. But the gap is also huge and it's not a surprise that Indie games can hardly compete fully with an AAA CRPG like was BG1.

EDIT: The very recent chock have been to learned that 3D graphics cost 10 more time for a same level of detail and quantity, that destroyed my hope that there will ever be a BG1 much better polished.

 

[txa1265]

Well, Cadderly for one.

Ooh ... missed him! Have to search on my next go 'round!

 

[txa1265]

I think it's still modern if you look at it that way, crpgs go back to 1975.

Sure, but by that token Fahrenheit 451 is a modern film and Bing Crosby is a modern recording artist.

 

[JDR13]

Sure, but by that token Fahrenheit 451 is a modern film and Bing Crosby is a modern recording artist.

Nah… somehow I don't think something from 1998 relates too much to those things. Besides, music since Bing Crosby had changed a lot more than crpgs since BG.

 

[txa1265]

Nah… somehow I don't think something from 1998 relates too much to those things. Besides, music since Bing Crosby had changed a lot more than crpgs since BG.

Why not - you pulled the mid 70's in spite of there not being home PC's at that point and no home PC RPG's existing for about 6 years after. So if we look at that as a 30 year PC RPG history, with BG as 12 years old out of that, it goes back ~40% of the history ... not quite half but nearly.

I cited other media to put it into an accurate context - and it IS accurate, if not even overly generous. I know it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison ...

As for music, not so much Bing, but if you look at two hot selling albums of 1959 - Kind of Blue and Take Five, it is pretty inarguable that music has been seriously 'dumbed down' in the last 50 years ... certainly it is easy to argue that the devolution of harmonic and rhythmic complexity over the last few years in music that is relatively popular is greater than the streamlining of RPG's

 

[JDR13]

Why not - you pulled the mid 70's in spite of there not being home PC's at that point and no home PC RPG's existing for about 6 years after. So if we look at that as a 30 year PC RPG history, with BG as 12 years old out of that, it goes back ~40% of the history … not quite half but nearly.

I cited other media to put it into an accurate context - and it IS accurate, if not even overly generous. I know it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison …

Do some research and you'll see that crpgs date back to Unix based university computers. I'm not sure what "home PCs" have to do with anything.

As far as accurate context goes, I'm not sure how you can try to compare 2 totally different things and pretend that you're getting an accurate context, and please don't try to rationalize some sort of correlation because video games and music fall into the broad definition of "media". To say it isn't apples to apples is an understatement. Anyways, your opinion is clear so I truly hope we can skip further semantics this time, and simply agree to disagree.

 

[txa1265]

Actually, what I'd like you do do is to explain in some detail where you come up with your own context and meaning of 'Modern', as perhaps it is just that we are missing your meaning since you never actually said what you meant.

I read the actual definition "of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past" ... and see very little about Baldur's Gate that fits that profile. But at the same time as mentioned it can be postulated that Fallout and Baldur's Gate represent the start of the modern era of RPG games. If that is your context let us know.

Yet aside from hearkening back to them as milestone moments that represent some sort of Golden Era I see little emulation in current day games, which again gives me pause.

So I am wondering - and it isn't even that we necessarily disagree, it is more that I am asking for you to clarify your opinion so we can understand your thoughts.

 

[JDR13]

I was kind of wondering the same thing about your opinion. I'm not sure what you mean by my "own context" though. It's not as if I'm saying something that conflicts with a confirmed fact. The only thing that has been put forth thus far are opinions, nothing more. I mean, both answers are obviously subjective, something which I pointed out at the very beginning.

You almost give the impression that there's some kind of hard cut-off date, and that you know what it is. So what is it? 1998? 1999? 2000? I really don't think there is one. Why, for instance, would Gothic still be considered modern, but BG would not? Is it a matter of date? Or is this more of a pixels vs polygons thing, which I strongly suspect it is for a lot of people.

I also think that your opinion may be partially based on the length your own experience, as that tends to be the case with many people. You've previously stated on these boards (correct me if I'm wrong) that you didn't really become involved in the genre until around 2000 right? Well I started gaming in 1980 at the age of 7, and played my first RPG (Dungeons of Daggorath, on the Tandy TRS-80) in 1982. So I think it's understandable how I might view the timeline a bit differently.


It might be interesting to start a separate thread about it, and see what other people think. Not just about that game in particular, but about modern vs non-modern crpgs in general.

 

[Rithrandil]

Ooh … missed him! Have to search on my next go 'round!

I can tell you where he is, if you want. I think you may just not remember the conversation, since (like Elminster) he just kind of walks up to you and is like HAI!.

 

[JDR13]

I can tell you where he is, if you want. I think you may just not remember the conversation, since (like Elminster) he just kind of walks up to you and is like HAI!.

Was Cadderly part of a major faction like the Red Wizards, or the Harpers?

 

[Zaleukos]

I read the actual definition "of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past" … and see very little about Baldur's Gate that fits that profile.

Well there is the player character + recruitable companions formula, and the NPC banter (which I dont recall much of before BG2 and to some extent Arcanum). At least Bioware has kept those characteristics in their games. I would also argue that the UI has aged relatively well even if it doesnt look like "modern" UIs, but that is one area where development arguably has regressed due to consolisation.

Otherwise I mostly agree with Dasale, the BGs are old games now and modern games are different and do a lot of things better. The one aspect where these oldies stand out is party control which frankly is shite in all modern RPGs I've played (Drakensang is probably the least bad). I am surprised that there has been so few high profile attempts at building RPGs on RTS engines...

 

[Rithrandil]

Was Cadderly part of a major faction like the Red Wizards, or the Harpers?

He's from Salvatore's books, like Drizzt. Specifically, the Cleric Quintet, although he does make a few appearances in the Drizzt novels. He's a priest of Deneir kind of doing his own thing.

 

[JDR13]

He's from Salvatore's books, like Drizzt. Specifically, the Cleric Quintet, although he does make a few appearances in the Drizzt novels. He's a priest of Deneir kind of doing his own thing.

Ah, thanks. I would never have known that had you not pointed it out. Despite being a big D&D fan for a long time now, I've never gotten around to reading any of Salvatore's books.

 

[txa1265]

Actually I was playing rogue and dungeon games with school friends who I also played tabletop D&D with on PDP-10 mainframes back in the mid-late 70's, played early stuff on Apple 2 in very early 80's but then left the genre, got Diablo as a gift, hated it and stayed away until summer 2003.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, and was merely using contextual association to frame a definition relative to other media. But that remains contextually ambiguous ... take cell phones: in the context of telephones and person to person communications cell phones are clearly modern, yet the phone Gordon Gecko had in Wall Street is a museum piece that few would regard as modern. See what I mean?

 

[Relayer]

Well I was using technology as my frame of reference.

System requirements for Baldur's Gate:

Pentium 166 MHz
Operating System Windows 95/98
RAM 16 MB
DirectX 3.0
Video Card: 2 MB
CD-ROM Drive 4X
Hard Disk Installation 320 MB

The O/S is what, like 3 or 4 generations removed from the current O/S?

 

[Rithrandil]

I still chuckle whenever I have the opportunity to reinstall Fallout 2, and it's like HUMONGOUS INSTALLATION!!!!!! - 600 megabytes.

 

[EvilManagedCare]

Well, Cadderly for one.

Also, the leaders of Baldur's Gate are the canonical leaders, if I am not mistaken. Who else is there, Evil?

Damn, called to the carpet I can't remember exactly, I think Wulfgar was? I'm not all that well versed in FR lore, but I know enough names that I recognize them and there were some others. These cameos by no means ruined the game for me, but I though it a bit much to have both Elminster and Drizzt (who was becoming a bit of a cliche even then) in the same game. I know there were others. Don't make me Google this!

All this BG talk makes me want to replay it.

 

[vanedor]

Maybe the devs saw this (I don't know) and invented the thing which still impresses me deeply to this day : The "internal chats" within the group, depending on the dispüosition of the cvharscters (don't remember a better word for it right now) : Neutral, good, evil, chaotic …

This is something I have seen ONLY in BG and in BGII, and it still astonishes me that no-one has tried this after that - of the games I know and have played myself.

Actually, to be honest, Dragon Age did it, and did it pretty well.