Dishonored 2 - Female Protagonist

[JDR13]

Then you're not listening to me either. There's a big difference psychologically between "Oh, if I screw up badly enough I can just re-load", and "Oh, shit. This is serious because I can't re-load!"

Let's be honest, 99.9% of people who play RPGs, myself included, will re-load at least once when they get a less than desirable outcome in a quest, or made a mistake in some way. The game becomes something much different when that is no longer an option.

And again, I'm not saying it has to be Gothic's level of hardcore and/or masochism, but for those who want a much different experience with more challenge, tension and reason to pay attention to the game, it could work really well.

No, I'm listening just fine. You like to pretend that you know what other people are going to do in any given situation. I agree that many people will reload due to C&C, but I think you're way off with your 99.9% claim.

Such a concept will never fly in anything other than a very niche game. It's just not something that's going to appeal to most people for obvious reasons.

 

[Deleted User]

Yes, I've played Gothic - and the key to appreciate is that SOMETIMES they kill you.

That's the problem I'm talking about.

That sounds really complicated and silly, really.

But it's how they do it now, isn't it? If you get beat up and not deathblow'd, you can continue playing the game. If you get deathblow'd/die, you have to re-load. Same thing, only the option to re-load on non-killing blows is disabled so you have to live with your beatdown from a bad choice made.

Again, I would know the risk was minimal (and I would naturally leave my money somewhere so he couldn't take it) - because the system won't allow a real risk of death - and then I wouldn't invest much in the choice.

Well, do you invest more in the way RPGs currently present it? I.e. no risk at all, no forethought needed at all? It's not as simple as you just presented it. I know there'd be some of us, perhaps many of us, who are too lazy to stash our gold at that precise moment. Maybe the nearest "safe" chest is too far away. Maybe you don't have a good stash spot yet and NPCs can pick up any items that are currently on the ground + there are no safe chests unless you own them. So in that moment you say, "Ah, I'll take the chance. He'll never catch me...", and boom!

 

[Deleted User]

No, I'm listening just fine. You like to pretend that you know what other people are going to do in any given situation. I agree that many people will reload due to C&C, but I think you're way off with your 99.9% claim.

Such a concept will never fly in anything other than a very niche game. It's just not something that's going to apeal to most people for obvious reasons.

I never said it would. But considering someone went through the trouble to make a Consequences Mode mod for Gothic 3, I'd say there are some people who would be interested. Especially if it was executed really well, had multiple difficulty options (we aren't all masochists, I realize this) and was presented in a way that people could understand and learn.

And you honestly think there are gamers now who won't re-load at least ONCE in a CRPG? If anyone like that exists, please show me.

 

[JDR13]

But it's how they do it now, isn't it? If you get beat up and not deathblow'd, you can continue playing the game. If you get deathblow'd/die, you have to re-load. Same thing, only the option to re-load on non-killing blows is disabled so you have to live with your beatdown from a bad choice made.

Or you can just choose to not reload, but you don't seem to get that there are people who can do that.

And you honestly think there are gamers now who won't re-load at least ONCE in a CRPG? If anyone like that exists, please show me.

Yes. It's common sense that, out of the millions of people that play these games, there are going to be some that can actually do that.

 

[NewDArt]

But it's how they do it now, isn't it? If you get beat up and not deathblow'd, you can continue playing the game. If you get deathblow'd/die, you have to re-load. Same thing, only the option to re-load on non-killing blows is disabled so you have to live with your beatdown from a bad choice made.

Again, that means the risk is minimal - because I can reload when I die like always.

So, I'm still not seeing the benefit. I would never worry about being beaten up in a game, I mean - it's a game and wouldn't represent an actual loss.

I mean, the concept is fine - but the annoyance of not being able to save at will during other times makes it SO not worth it, to me.

Well, do you invest more in the way RPGs currently present it? I.e. no risk at all, no forethought needed at all? It's not as simple as you just presented it. I know there'd be some of us, perhaps many of us, who are too lazy to stash our gold at that precise moment. Maybe the nearest "safe" chest is too far away. Maybe you don't have a good stash spot yet and NPCs can pick up any items that are currently on the ground + there are no safe chests unless you own them. So in that moment you say, "Ah, I'll take the chance. He'll never catch me…", and boom!

Yes I invest in the way RPGs play currently exactly for the reasons given. It's like you're not listening to us at all.

Try to understand that it's possible that we just don't agree with you without being wrong.

Once again, for like the tenth time - I DELIBERATELY live with my choices in RPGs - because I find that FUN. So, obviously I invest because I have to live with the consequences.

I don't need some arbitrary limitation in place that YOU think is fantastic - even though you obviously haven't thought about what it would actually mean in a game.

 

[Deleted User]

You just said you re-load after using the wrong potion, now you live with the choices in RPGs? Lol.

I'd like to see video proof of situations where you didn't re-load when:

An important NPC accidentally died in a fight
You wasted a potion/scroll/high value item (lol)
You ended up making a choice that you didn't like the results of
You lost something major in a quest that was unexpected and not satisfactory to you

And it's fine if you did re-load. I'm not judging you. lol. It's fine if you don't re-load 95% of the time but on those realllyyyy nasty ones you did. I'm just saying that an OPTIONAL mode that restricts that could be cool as well.

And it's ironic that 2 posts ago you said you haven't thought about what I'm saying, yet now I'm the one who hasn't thought about what it would mean to the game. You are full of laughs today, DART.

 

[NewDArt]

You just said you re-load after using the wrong potion, now you live with the choices in RPGs? Lol.

QUEST choices, Fluent. How many times do you need to read something before you actually pay attention?

I'd like to see video proof of situations where you didn't re-load when:

An important NPC accidentally died in a fight
You wasted a potion/scroll/high value item (lol)
You ended up making a choice that you didn't like the results of
You lost something major in a quest that was unexpected and not satisfactory to you

Ehm, what possible incentive would I have to make the slightest effort of proving that to you?

If you don't believe me - there's nothing to talk about, period.

And it's ironic that 2 posts ago you said you haven't thought about what I'm saying, yet now I'm the one who hasn't thought about what it would mean to the game. You are full of laughs today, DART.

There is the little difference here that I'm not claiming I have this super cool new feature that would make games so much better.

 

[Deleted User]

QUEST choices, Fluent. How many times do you need to read something before you actually pay attention?

Using potions/item management is included in a Consequences Mode, which I've already explained. Your actions would have weight because you had to analyze your situation and make sure you're making a wise choice. Yes, even when using items, or a choice in a quest or a choice of pissing off the wrong NPC and so on.

Ehm, what possible incentive would I have to make the slightest effort of proving that to you?

If you don't believe me - there's nothing to talk about, period.

It was rhetorical, DART. You aren't reading between the lines. The bottom line is that once the safety net of not being able to re-load is removed, the game changes. If that doesn't appeal to you, that's cool.

There is the little difference here that I'm not claiming I have this super cool new feature that would make games so much better.

I guess I'll just have to not share my ideas in the future with anyone other than developers who can make it happen, then.

In my opinion, a great choice in an RPG would also have "having to live with it" be a large part of the equation. Again, as an OPTIONAL mode, it would add increased weight, and also surprise, to the entire game.

 

[NewDArt]

Using potions/item management is included in a Consequences Mode, which I've already explained. Your actions would have weight because you had to analyze your situation and make sure you're making a wise choice. Yes, even when using items, or a choice in a quest or a choice of pissing off the wrong NPC and so on.

You're just not listening at all, I guess.

I ALREADY preserve resources at all times and analyse my situation. That's why I reload whenever I use a potion in the wrong situation - but, and here's the key, that's the OCD part - meaning it's completely trivial and outright stupid of me.

So, not being able to reload wouldn't make the slightest difference - except of course that I wouldn't reload.

Which is fine, but hardly worth the inconvenience as I already said.

Also, there are many ways of enforcing consequences that work much better.

One example is the Fallout 4 Survival mode - where you absolutely WILL live with your choices - because if you reload you're facing potentially hours of replaying - which you don't want to do.

That includes quest choices, by the way.

So, really, I'm still not seeing a need for this "Consequences" mode.

It was rhetorical, DART. You aren't reading between the lines. The bottom line is that once the safety net of not being able to re-load is removed, the game changes. If that doesn't appeal to you, that's cool.

Why do you think I'm playing Fallout 4 Survival mode? Of course it appeals to me.

It just has to make sense and be worth it to me.

I guess I'll just have to not share my ideas in the future with anyone other than developers who can make it happen, then.

Here's my advice if it's really important for you that everyone thinks your ideas are great.

Think them through and be rational when faced with criticism instead of overly defensive.

Also, perhaps create a separate thread where your idea can be discussed by lots of people - instead of spamming several threads with how fantastic it is.

A little modesty and realism would go a long way.

Anyway, I already said I like the concept of real consequences. If a game is very good - then I'm often willing to invest and deal with bad consequences - because I'm immersed.

But unless you come up with something that's actually new and functional - I'm probably not going to be ecstatic about it.

 

[Deleted User]

You're just not listening at all, I guess.

I ALREADY preserve resources at all times and analyse my situation. That's why I reload whenever I use a potion in the wrong situation - but, and here's the key, that's the OCD part - meaning it's completely trivial and outright stupid of me.

So, not being able to reload wouldn't make the slightest difference - except of course that I wouldn't reload.

Which is fine, but hardly worth the inconvenience as I already said.

Also, there are many ways of enforcing consequences that work much better.

So let me get this straight. You re-load because it's…uh, you being stupid, and it's really a trivial thing? Or, are you maybe afraid that you wasted an item you may really need? I think that's a bit more of a logical reason for a re-load.

To use Gothic as an example again, during a large chunk of the game, item management is important. Good scrolls are hard to find, pricey and very effective. So if you have, for example, a single Fire Rain scroll and there are 2 or 3 different areas it would be very effective for you, you're going to want to make a good decision on where to use it. So if you use it, think you've wasted it or used it incorrectly (as in your example), you wouldn't get to re-load and "try again".

If you think that's just of no consequence and won't make the slightest difference, then I'm not sure if you've understood anything I've posted thus far.

One example is the Fallout 4 Survival mode - where you absolutely WILL live with your choices - because if you reload you're facing potentially hours of replaying - which you don't want to do.

That includes quest choices, by the way.

Anyway, I already said I like the concept of real consequences. If a game is very good - then I'm often willing to invest and deal with bad consequences - because I'm immersed.

But unless you come up with something that's actually new and functional - I'm probably not going to be ecstatic about it.

So now you are "often willing" to invest and deal with bad consequences? I thought you always ANALYZE and LIVE with them. Which one is it now?

Anywho, I was talking about this idea before both Fallout 4 Survival Mode was released as well as Starcrawlers. Not to brag or boast, just saying that because I think it's quite a new idea. Especially if these are the only examples of RPGs that remotely do anything close to that. I have to take a close look at Survival Mode and see what it's all about. I hope it's a step in the direction I'm suggesting, because I do think some RPG gamers like myself (very selfish here) would greatly enjoy it.

Edit - While Survival Mode seems like an improvement, it's still not what I'm suggesting. I personally have no interest in eating/drinking/sleeping in an RPG in a semi-realistic way. I tried it for awhile with a Morrowind mod and grew to abhor it.

So while yes, the limited saving by having to sleep in a bed/bedroll/etc. is very cool, and the auto-deletion upon loading an exit save is great, it's still not exactly what I'm saying. You can sleep, for example, do a quest 5 minutes later, not like the outcome and re-load the sleep save, correct? So you are correct in that you can lose hours down the line if you don't want to re-load, it's still not quite what I'm suggesting. Nor is the design of Fallout 4 conducive to my design as something like Gothic would be. Fallout 4 doesn't have a lot of complex choices in dialogue, for one, or very surprising outcomes based on your choices. And at the end of the day, re-loading is *still* an option, it just becomes a matter of how much progress a player is willing to lose before not wanting to re-load. So, a small step in the direction I'm proposing, but not quite a giant leap for hardcore-esque RPGkind.

 

[NewDArt]

So let me get this straight. You re-load because it's…uh, you being stupid, and it's really a trivial thing? Or, are you maybe afraid that you wasted an item you may really need? I think that's a bit more of a logical reason for a re-load.

To use Gothic as an example again, during a large chunk of the game, item management is important. Good scrolls are hard to find, pricey and very effective. So if you have, for example, a single Fire Rain scroll and there are 2 or 3 different areas it would be very effective for you, you're going to want to make a good decision on where to use it. So if you use it, think you've wasted it or used it incorrectly (as in your example), you wouldn't get to re-load and "try again".

If you think that's just of no consequence and won't make the slightest difference, then I'm not sure if you've understood anything I've posted thus far.

Listen, Fluent - you're not making much of an impact with your argument if you don't care to at least listen to the people talking to you.

If I waste one scroll out of a hundred in Gothic - then you think that's a big deal? Ok, but in the real world it's not.

The reason I reload anyway - is because I'm OCD about it. Meaning, it's a COMPULSION that's not based on intellectual merit or some kind of deep reasoning.

It's the same thing with you when you're trying to sell your latest bullshit - like you're doing here

So now you are "often willing" to invest and deal with bad consequences? I thought you always ANALYZE and LIVE with them. Which one is it now?

I'm always careful and analytical about RESOURCES.

I almost always live with my QUEST choices.

If a game is good - I'm willing to live with bad consequences of ALL KINDS (not just quest choices) - because I'm immersed.

For instance, I'm ok with wasting 30-60 minutes of playtime in Fallout 4 because I died and messed up. Why? Because I love Fallout 4.

I would never be willing to do that repeatedly in many other games.

Anywho, I was talking about this idea before both Fallout 4 Survival Mode was released as well as Starcrawlers. Not to brag or boast, just saying that because I think it's quite a new idea. Especially if these are the only examples of RPGs that remotely do anything close to that. I have to take a close look at Survival Mode and see what it's all about. I hope it's a step in the direction I'm suggesting, because I do think some RPG gamers like myself (very selfish here) would greatly enjoy it.

Oh my, I think I will refrain from commenting here.

 

[Deleted User]

Listen, Fluent - you're not making much of an impact with your argument if you don't care to at least listen to the people talking to you.

If I waste one scroll out of a hundred in Gothic - then you think that's a big deal? Ok, but in the real world it's not.

The reason I reload anyway - is because I'm OCD about it. Meaning, it's a COMPULSION that's not based on intellectual merit or some kind of deep reasoning.

It's the same thing with you when you're trying to sell your latest bullshit - like you're doing here

You must be getting rusty, DART, because I remember your arguments being a lot better than they are now.

First, you'll never get 100 scrolls in Gothic at once. Even if I added up all the scrolls at end-game I had left over, it wasn't 100. Second, there are rare scrolls and rare items in Gothic, sometimes you will only get access to one or maybe two at once, based on what you can afford. So you completely ignored my Fire Rain example, which is an example of a RARE scroll that is very valuable and effective. If you waste one Fire Rain scroll, yes, it will have a major impact. Just try playing as a Mage and fighting the large group of Orcs or Dragon Snappers guarding an area you'd like to get to if you don't have that Fire Rain scroll anymore. So, it forces you to try something else, maybe more creative. Off-topic, but in this case you could transform into an animal instead to bypass the encounter, losing the XP gain but getting into a new area you can check out.

But based on that response I see there's really no reason to continue the discussion here if you aren't willing to listen to anything I'm saying.

I'm always careful and analytical about RESOURCES.

I almost always live with my QUEST choices.

If a game is good - I'm willing to live with bad consequences of ALL KINDS (not just quest choices) - because I'm immersed.

For instance, I'm ok with wasting 30-60 minutes of playtime in Fallout 4 because I died and messed up. Why? Because I love Fallout 4.

Okay, cool. So why the resistance to a mode that turns "almost always living with" consequences to a mode where you'd HAVE to? I'd have thought you'd be on board with such a mode.

 

[NewDArt]

You must be getting rusty, DART, because I remember your arguments being a lot better than they are now.

First, you'll never get 100 scrolls in Gothic at once. Even if I added up all the scrolls at end-game I had left over, it wasn't 100. Second, there are rare scrolls and rare items in Gothic, sometimes you will only get access to one or maybe two at once, based on what you can afford. So you completely ignored my Fire Rain example, which is an example of a RARE scroll that is very valuable and effective. If you waste one Fire Rain scroll, yes, it will have a major impact. Just try playing as a Mage and fighting the large group of Orcs or Dragon Snappers guarding an area you'd like to get to if you don't have that Fire Rain scroll anymore. So, it forces you to try something else, maybe more creative. Off-topic, but in this case you could transform into an animal instead to bypass the encounter, losing the XP gain but getting into a new area you can check out.

Ok, so now we're being pedantically literal? Good job!

Anyway, I believe I can waste several minor potions and scrolls in Gothic and it won't have the slightest impact on my success in the game.

I tend to not waste important stuff - or stuff that seems important.

I defeated the game almost without the use of scrolls and most potions, though - as I'm not really a magic kind of guy.

Which makes my OCD about those resources even more ridiculous.

But based on that response I see there's really no reason to continue the discussion here if you aren't willing to listen to anything I'm saying.

If you have something worth hearing, I'm more than willing

Okay, cool. So why the resistance to a mode that turns "almost always living with" consequences to a mode where you'd HAVE to?

What do you mean resistance? You can have all the modes you want.

I just don't think it's very well thought out or particularly useful.

 

[Deleted User]

Ok, so now we're being pedantically literal? Good job!

Anyway, I believe I can waste several potions and scrolls in Gothic and it won't have the slightest impact on my success in the game.

I already gave you a concrete example that you're choosing to ignore. You can watch my latest Gothic 2 Let's Play episodes as a Fire Mage for plenty of other examples. Running out of Mana potions, wishing I had a Fire Rain scroll and much more is possible in that game. Chapter 4, Valley of Mines. It was wicked.

And a potion or two wasted? No biggie. Add that up after awhile? Much more impacting. Balanced to where you really wouldn't want to waste them too often? Tantalizing, even. Scrolls, too, as many of them are already rare throughout the game, and very necessary to survival as a Mage.

What do you mean resistance? You can have all the modes you want.

I just don't think it's very well thought out or particularly useful.

Fair enough, then. I'm not an RPG designer, just sharing an idea that I hope reaches the ear of someone who designs RPGs (see: someone who is paid to make it work $.) That's really the only reason I post the idea so much.

 

[NewDArt]

I already gave you a concrete example that you're choosing to ignore. You can watch my latest Gothic 2 Let's Play episodes as a Fire Mage for plenty of other examples. Running out of Mana potions, wishing I had a Fire Rain scroll and much more is possible in that game. Chapter 4, Valley of Mines. It was wicked.

I'm not ignoring - it's just not relevant to my point. I don't play Fire Mage - and I already said I didn't use much in the way of potions (except healing potions) - and almost no scrolls.

Meaning, I have little need of them - and I could easily waste the majority without issue.

And a potion or two wasted? No biggie. Add that up after awhile? Much more impacting. Balanced to where you really wouldn't want to waste them too often? Tantalizing, even. Scrolls, too, as many of them are already rare throughout the game, and very necessary to survival as a Mage.

Not at all. I guess you might just suck at the game?

Anyway, I don't play mages in Gothic so it's completely irrelevant to me.

Fair enough, then. I'm not an RPG designer, just sharing an idea that I hope reaches the ear of someone who designs RPGs (see: someone who is paid to make it work $.) That's really the only reason I post the idea so much.

Good luck!

 

[Deleted User]

I'm not ignoring - it's just not relevant to my point. I don't play Fire Mage - and I already said I didn't use much in the way of potions (except healing potions) - and almost no scrolls.

Meaning, I have little need of them - and I could easily waste the majority without issue.

Anyway, I don't play mages in Gothic so it's completely irrelevant to me.

Those are just examples, though, of a design that is tighter balanced in an RPG. It's not about Gothic, as the mode I'm suggesting would have tighter resource management for YOUR class as well. Lords of Xulima does this as I already mentioned. On Hardcore mode, scrolls and potions are actually luxury items, almost, yet necessary to progress as well. At least, for my initial playthrough they were. You had to make choices on if you should buy a new piece of armor or weapon, or a potion or scroll.

Meaningful, impacting and thoughtful item management design. Complete with tightly balanced economy.

Good luck!

Thank you. Although it's not some big deal that I'm pursuing or anything. I'm just planting seeds, like Bill Hicks.

 

[joxer]

WTF

Yes you will reload if you die in DH2, so what. Yes you will reload if you play nonleathal and stumble on a bug where a certain witch dies for no reason. Other times, no you won't reload.

General reloading in RPGs, I'm not even sure why is it being discussed here. DH2 is not RPG.
Please open a separate savescumming (recent game where it has benefits - Regalia) and checkpointscumming (recent game where it has enormous benefits- MGS5) thread.

Because reloading in DH2 has absolutely nothing to do with females in a game.

 

[Wisdom]

Its always strange to me when people want forced mechanics that they could willingly choose right now. Why waste time and development $ when you could choose the very thing you want... right... now!

You could choose not to reload.

 

[Deleted User]

You could choose not to reload.

You could, but who has that kind of willpower? I mean, really.

It was very difficult to let Biff keep my 1000 gold when he beat me up for something I said. I did, but still. There were a couple other times I ended up re-loading, and would like a mode that caters to not doing that.

But it's not really a waste of time or development $, because the mode would also be balanced around the fact that you can't re-load at a whim. So that still changes the fundamental approach of the game, giving the developers a little more leeway to tease the player and create interesting, pressure situations, as well as to an extent, add psychological "tension" to the game, that even if you choose not to re-load, or say you won't, isn't quite the same as what I'm suggesting.

Again, no safety net. Just the knowing of that would mean you have to pay closer attention to the world you're exploring, which is already a key to Gothic-style RPGing, but would take it to another level, IMHO.

 

[Wisdom]

Aren't you describing a rogue-like tho?