How much does poor writing/UI influence your enjoyment of games?

[Furnok]

Hi All

I don't post very often (probably an understatement) , but an issue that's been rattling around in my head for a while keeps coming up, and I thought I might see what other folks think.

I can think of a number of games (relatively) recently that I've really struggled to get very far into, and it's due to what I perceive as a lack of baseline quality in the product. A good example is Antharion - I had positive expectations based on reviews and general commentary - but the quality of writing/plot was (to me) so terrible I just couldn't play it. I had a similar issue with Knights of the Chalice (although I got further into that one); despite a very nicely tooled combat system (I do love some decent DnD/turn based combat) I found the writing and plot quality to be enough of a turn-off that I couldn't keep playing.

Recently I started Legends of Eisenwald; I have only clocked a few minutes so far. But little things have already grated - the UI seems unintuitive, tooltips appearing half off the edge of the screen, etc. It hasn't made a great first impression.

Am I alone in thinking this quality issue seems to be more common recently (ie over the last 5 or so years), probably coinciding with the rise of kickstarter and indie publishers? Am I expecting too much from the non-AAA publishers? My gut instinct says no; folks like Spiderweb and Basilisk, for example, don't seem to have these issues. Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky after 30+ years of CRPG's.

I'd love to know if others are having similar experiences.

 

[Deleted User]

Not really an issue for me.

I seem to be able to get into just about any RPG as long as it has core RPG elements that I enjoy. I mean, I am still playing DOS games, Amiga games and the like. So, I don't have issues with UIs or anything, as long as I read the manual and figure out what does what.

I didn't think AntharioN was bad, either. Maybe you're expecting too much from a game, period. As Ken Rolston said, games are like sonnets, not novels. Just enjoy what is there and have fun spending some time with the game. Especially since nearly every RPG has redeeming qualities.

 

[Ripper]

@Furnok

I know what you mean. I think there are a lot productions out there that just don't have full-spectrum talent on board. There's a great many games that strike me as bland generic copies of what's gone before, by people that know how to assemble things with a game-engine, but really have no skills to speak of in good writing or design.

It could have something to do with game-design being a popular educational and training path these days. So, we have lots of people developing the technical skills, but perhaps then going it alone, without joining forces with people of other disciplines and talents.

 

[Drithius]

Very important. But I feel like-minded people are numbering in the minority these days with how braindead even AAA writing can be in so many cases. I should state that, in my opinion, writing is not only vital for the plot of the game, but its ambiance as well. For example, Jeff Vogel's detail is mesmerizing in Avernum games and greatly adds to the player's sense of immersion.

In contrast, I gave up on my last playthrough of Fallout 3 because of just how groan-inducing the dialogue is.

 

[greywolf00]

The UI isn't a deal breaker for me, but a poorly written story is basically a death sentence for a game to me. Story is one of the most important aspects of an RPG for me, so if a game fails to pull me in I'll just find another one that does.

 

[Silver]

UI does matter. The difference between good ui and bad is how well each element can be understood by the user through trial and error. Good Tool tips are badly under-rated in that respect. I think play-testing has gone out the window given how much modern games get shipped out in an incomplete state. The thing with kickstarter games is alot of them have tiny relative budgets and this exacerbates the issue.

Bad ui
====
- Awkward is the word for alot of ui. You have to click 4 times through various menus to accomplish what could be done in 2 and so forth. ie. quality of life improvements see Wasteland 2 to Wasteland 2 Enhanced Edition for how much better the busywork is handled for opening/disarming/pick locking chests etc.

- Requiring needless backtracking from the player because you forgot where something was. ie/ being able to label maps and write what you want on them helps a lot to respect the players time. Plus having general map markers as you discover things (which aren't too specific) helps too. Wasteland 2 could of used this feature while games like Ultima Underworld, D:OS had the feature which helped my enjoyment.

-Bad inventory management tools. Games really need to learn to sort this out without making it a dull spreadsheet. I don't want to see inventories full of tiny grid box graphics like in nwn2 which you need to tool-tip over each one to even work out what it is before manually sorting it into some sort of order.

Bad Writing
=======
- Don't have npcs there to deliver encyclopedic knowledge of things. Let me learn from how the world is presented and peoples reactions to things. Take a tip from games like the new Torment and let me look at various elements of the world.

- Don't go pompous in your writing or too silly.

- Don't over-exposition your writing.

- Have the theme be inter-woven in the writing and action.
ie.Don't just tell me about refugees show me.
ie.Don't tell me magic is banned and then let me use it scot free.

- Have characters that are fun to be with that have a connection to the themes present.

Yeah this stuff matters and this is just a few things.

 

[joxer]

Horrible UI instakills the game for me.
The most recent example - Neptunia port (which I thumbed down on Steam because of that). Apparently the game is awsome but for all I care with that UI, they can give that awsomeness to their mother. I never bothered buying sequels but my $ went elsewhere, on products with proper UI even if considered below average material.

Horrible writing is kinda tricky to answer.
I'm an odd person who likes exotic/unique stuff even if poorly written or explained and will forgive everything bad about a game if the story rocks. An example of writing that made me "advertise" a phonegame as one of the best videogames in history although I can't stand phonegames in general - Chaos Rings 2. It's great, it's exotic and it's unique and because of that, I'm forgiving it being a phonegame.
On the other hand even if it's cliche or mediocre I still like the fact I'm following a story, a reason.
What I hate and can't enjoy is nostory RPG. Sure, I can play a random shooter with no story, I can play sims with no story, I can go carracing who needs a story there, or hell tetris.
But RPG without a story? Gimme a break. To this day I'm not sure if I'll never forgive Skyrim because of it's numerous bugs or because lack of decent story.

 

[Kordanor]

Well…there are tons of little aspects, aren't there?

Interface:
I agree with the Interface of Legends of Eisenwald which has some issues, even though it's just little things like the design of the shop where you get used to it after a while.
Other games are worse when the Interface is unnecessarily complicated (crafting in release version of Divinity:OS), if it doesn't explain game mechanics at all (Blackguards), or if it lacks options to properly control your characters (Spiderweb games, where you basically have to use the spellbook half of the time because all the spells don't fit on the action bar, you have to open inventory with "i" but have to close it with "esc" and so on).

Writing:
-Typos:
Regarding errors and typos…well, there is hardly any game where I haven't at least found a dozen or so. If there is a typo in each and every dialogue then it definitely takes away from the experience. But if you just find like one typo in 4 hours or so, I am ok with it.

-Story:
Bad writing however…it really depends on what you count as bad writing.
There are some stories which I don't like at all. Everything in the direction of Divinity: OS (fight against the "void" which will devour the world…) or Pillars of Eternity (where you have to meet and talk to gods basically) I really dislike because it just feels random and thrown together as it's utterly unrealistic and unaccountable.
It's like all the plotholes as in a movie with time travel like "Butterfly Effect" or the "Heroes" Series, where time travel only causes consequences when it is fitting into the arc of the movie.
So I very much prefer stories along the lines of Realms of Arkania or Witcher, which are very much down-to-earth.

-Writing itself:
Of course you can also have a decent story and just tell it in a horrible, horrible way.
Lords of Xulima is a great example. Not that they had a decent story. The story itself was already horrible. But the way it was written was even worse. Some of the dialoges made me cringe.

-Amount of writing:
Then there is another issue I have with writing: If there is huge amounts of texts but actually very little substantial content. And most of it is only fluff. Pillars of Eternity was already pretty bad. You had tons of text without any relevant information in it. Now the game worst in this aspect is Shadowrun: Hong Kong, where you literally spend 80% of your time reading texts. Where you do deep dialogues to experience the moving past of a random vendor which has no relevance to the game whatsoever (but which you never know beforehand and the dialoge might still offer xp).

-Translation:
Of course you can add a whole additional layer of issues, when you consider translations. Wasteland 2 had a horrible, horrible German translation. One of the worst I have seen until that date. Shortly thereafter it was surpassed in horrible-ness by Pillars of Eternity, where not just the translation was bad, but it was also in a completely broken format. Meaning the basic coloring of the paragraphs was broken, weapon names were broken, and dialogues and answers were probably translated individually so that in several cases they did not fit to each other in any way.
Most of you won't have the issue. I recommend to check Planet Acatraz which I played recently and which is only available in English and Russian, where English is the translation. This video on 2:40 onwards is a great example of how a horrible localization could feel like. Another highlight is at 5:00


That said, what bothers me more is still bad game design. Like broken character systems which require to be studied for hours before you can actually start the game (Wasteland 2), Focus on Randomness in Combat, or just horrible game mechanics, like in Blackguards 1 where the game basically asks you to exploit in order to get the maximum out of every combat.

And considering all that, Legends of Eisenwald is still a pretty good game even if the interface isn't as good as it could be.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

I suppose I am somewhat like Fluent in that I am simply not that critical of games because they are just entertainment for me. I enjoy them for what they are overall.

That being said I don't like games just because they are a game. I only play a few types of games but that is a different topic. Within the genre and style of game I play I am not overly critical of writing as long as I enjoy the game for what it is. The UI is important to the point that I can use it but I don't nit pick. I almost never use any UI mods in a game that can have them modded. Took me 4 years before I even bothered with SkyUI in Skyrim and only moved to it because so many mods required it. I only use its most basic features.

That being said if the UI is bad it can detract from game play. Case in point FO4 and the UI for settlement building is horrible. Consequently I just do minimal stuff with that part of the game. The rest of the UI I am okay with. But I don't let it wreck my overall pleasure in playing the game.

Unlike the majority here I don't mind cliche characters or writing. I find them comfortable and enjoyable. I never tire of the basic good versus evil or chosen one type of plots. I like many of the common personalities given to various companions. I even tend to prefer some of the standard tropes to some of the more bizarre characters (like I much prefer a character like Eder over Grieving Mother of Durance). I also don't expect a prize winning novel when I play a game.

What I do expect in writing is basic good grammar and spelling and a consistent set of lore that doesn't contradict itself.

In general it is more of a gestalt when I play a game and decide if I like it or not. I don't dissect all its parts and make a decision on that. I play it for awhile and see how the whole game feels. If the overall fun factor is high enough I play it. Otherwise I toss it. Fairly simple really.

 

[Sacred_Path]

Bad writing can be a major detraction. However, what constitutes bad writing in a CRPG isn't so easy to define. I've enjoyed Antharion just fine, for example. Fantasy should never take itself too seriously, for one; Tolkien knew this. A lot of his successors don't.

I mostly don't care about UI at all. There are many more important aspects to core RPG gameplay.

 

[Fnord]

As for UI, it depends a lot on in what way it's bad, and the game itself. If the UI makes combat feel really slow, due to bad design where I have to go through sub menu after sub menu, that can really kill a game for me.
If the game is rules heavy, and does a poor job at explaining the systems so that I'm basically guessing what each thing does (hello Last Remnant), then that can be a killer for me as well, unless the tutorial is good enough. I would probably be far less lenient towards older D&D games these days, were I not already familiar with the rule system, as they tend to do a terrible job at actually explaining how things work.

And as for Writing, that also depends on the game. But a text heavy game where there's a poor flow in how things are written just make me zone out. This is often the case with poorly localized games (a lot of games from eastern Europe that lacked the budget for a proper localization are unplayable for me, even if I like a lot of stuff about the games). Planet Alcatraz stands out as one of the worst offenders here, but it's not the only one.

Some games just love text dumps, and this is also often a sign of bad writing. This is obviously not always the case, but for most games, being able to get your point across in fewer words is a virtue.

 

[fadedc]

I don't mind poor story if the rest of the game is good, although a good story can keep me playing for a lot longer. In Antharion for example I wasn't turned off by story, it was no worse then plenty of indie games. But I did get bored with the very simple mechanics after about 5 hours or so. If the game had a real story I might have stayed with it for longer.

Bad UI can be more of a game killer, because it directly interferes with my enjoyment of the game. It slows things down, and if the UI is extremely unintuitive then it will make it much harder for me to get into things at the beginning. If the UI is poor then the game has to be really good to convince me to suffer through it.

 

[wolfing]

poor writing is low on my list of problems, I put much more weight on gameplay. But a bad UI can certainly kill a game for me if it's impeding my enjoyment of the game.

 

[Nyx]

Writing can be a deal breaker for me, probably due to being a hobby writer myself and as such I tend to look more into the writing more than I probably should.

Bad UI however I don't really have a big issue with. All the technical details are more of a minor nuisance than a fun breaker for me.

 

[Deleted User]

I'm much more concerned about poor gameplay or lack of gameplay in RPGs than I am about story.

If a game features too much story and feels like an interactive movie, I tend to skip those. However, if the opposite is true, and the game features barely any story but rich gameplay elements, I will love it.

My passion in RPG gaming is playing with mechanics, learning the game and expressing my creativity within the game's parameters.

I really, really enjoy those games that are endless playgrounds of creativity and gameplay. Games like Icewind Dale, Elminage Gothic, and others that feature gameplay front and center and allow you to creatively play the game using your own unique strategy. That is really what I love recently about RPG gaming.

 

[Nameless one]

As for UI, it depends a lot on in what way it's bad, and the game itself. If the UI makes combat feel really slow, due to bad design where I have to go through sub menu after sub menu, that can really kill a game for me.

+1.I also can't stand console port UI, it's not instant deal breaker but it's huge minus.

As for writing it depends on game.For aRPGs(like Diablo, Grim dawn and Path of exile) and Dungeon crawlers good story isn't really necessary but I do consider it a big plus.For classic cRPG decent story, writing and setting is must have and lack of one is deal breaker for me.

 

[forgottenlor]

Having started my gameplay with Bard's Tale, where you had to type in the names of spells to cast them, has made me almost immune to bad UI, almost. I did find the unmodded Skyrim UI to be pretty annoying, for instance. But normally I get used to a UI pretty quickly.
Bad writing is somewhat relative. I also found AntharioN to be humorous and sardonic, but not brilliantly written. I can really enjoy material I find good. I loved the writing in Shadow Run:Hong Kong, even though I'll happily agree with Kordanon that some of it is totally non-functional, and only there to provide flavor. I also loved the writing in Pillars of Eternity.
I think bad writing becomes an issue if it is somehow a focus in a game and terrible. Like Fluent, the poor localization of Elminage:Gothic didn't bother me at all, because the writing wasn't important at all to the gameplay. The writing in Lords of Xulima didn't bother me either, because if its rather marginal role. In Fallen A2P Protocal, you're forced to watch cringeworthy cutscenes, which are your "reward" for finishing a mission. In this case, the developer would have done better to hire good writers and voice actors, or simply to have kept to brief functional writing. Unfortunately neither was the case and bad writing gets the center stage.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

As I already wrote elsewhere : The UI from Sacred 1 is in my personal opinion the most beautiful UI I've ever seen.

It is a riddle to my why gaming companies just can't or don't want to use aesthetics in developing an UI. A pleasure for the eye ! That's how it should be, imho.

 

[Elel]

For me, writing is very important. The last game I won't name disappointed me so much in the writing and characters department (after being hyped like crazy) that I outright dropped playing games for a couple of months. Or more than a couple, I can't even remember now, but it's that game's fault that I haven't even been visiting this site for news…

But I'm sure that has nothing to do with games dropping in quality. I'm just so choosy these days. Somehow it's not enough to click stuff anymore, I want to feel more involved and invested in the world and characters. Also I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that there are a few great games like that that I've played, they set a very high standard, and now all the rest seem like mediocre boring toys in comparison.

And I swear I'm getting more and more choosy each day. Even reading a short description of a new game can turn me off a big time if it sounds like I've heard all of that before. I want either something of amazing quality or something very creative, and I don't trust any kind of reviews or blurbs anymore. They just don't deliver, they always overhype too much and give too much praise. And often they miss the points that are important to me completely, so they feel very uninformative.

UI? It can be grating, but I can forgive anything to a game that I like for other reasons, even a horrible UI. If it's just a mediocre game, though, then any flaw it has, like a bad UI, will drive me insane.

 

[Toff]

A superb story is key for me. with good writing I can deal with average everything else but the story has to be there.