D:OS2 I have finished the game

[Kordanor]

I certainly wouldn't call Fallout 4 complex in the character building department (or anywhere else for that matter)…

Yeah, but imho it's still a good way to introduce players to the game and it's systems.
I liked Fallout 4s system and absolutely prefer it over Fallout 3's system. But of course you are right in that it isn't exactly complex.

 

[NewDArt]

Again, I’ve never played a rich and complex game that didn’t require the study of mechanics and playing the game quite a bit before I could make optimal choices.

Same is true in DOS2 where I had to play for many hours before I fully grasped everything and I still needed 4-5 respecs before I was happy.

Now, could NWN have better tutorials? I’m sure it could, but there’s no tutorial in the world that will teach people optimal build strategies for rich and complex systems.

Nor would I want one, because that would ruin my fun of discovering my own build strategies.

It would be like reading a guide to how to win Civ 6 in an easy way before actually trying the game for yourself. What a terrible way to play a strategy game

But I actually enjoy games where I can fail and where I have to replay multiple times before I “beat the system”.

 

[Thrasher]

I prefer the rules to be little more clear cut. Elex was pretty terrible in that department. NWN 2 wasn't always clear either. I had to search the web for seperate DnD rule sources. Fallout 4 was too simplistic for me.

 

[you]

You can target folks via the list at the top (that shows attack order); so covering them shouldn't be a big deal.

That bone spider my necro uses can have position issues, too. He covers up the enemy I want to attack sometimes, making it hard to click on them. You have to figure out which panel along the top is the one you want to attack and use that.

Like NewDArt said, though, I've adapted. Just don't summon boney right on top of the target.

 

[Kordanor]

Well, then, let's put it the other way around.

What would you think about a game which makes you chose a character class at the start, showing you 6 different class names and no further information.
Next step you have to distribute your attribute points. You only have the attribute names (like strength) but the game does not tell you what they do.
Let's say that later in the game you find out, you will never get any additional attribute points. The way you distributed them in the beginning is final.
You also find out, that, having chosen a thief, you actually can't use good daggers in the game, as besides of dexterity, they also require some strength, which you failed to take at the start of the game.
After 20 hours you reach level 10 of ...well, you don't know the max level and you unlock a special skill: poisoned daggers. But you can't learn it, because you are missing 5 skillpoints in poisoning. So...you might be able to unlock the new skill in 5 levels.
I could go on and on.

I don't think you can argue that this (hypothetical) system doesn't have any issues because the system behind it is rather deep (and let's assume that it is).
It would be fine in a rogue-like where the game is designed around dieing after 2 hours and starting over. But not for a 100h long rpg.

 

[Thrasher]

If there is no way to find the rules except by trial and error then that would be terrible.

If the rules could be found outside the game, then it would be marginally ok.

 

[Kordanor]

If the rules could be found outside the game, then it would be marginally ok.

Well, in the day and age of internet, you will always find someone who already made this experience. And that was actually one of the reasons I created these overviews and gave some detailed starting guide in my MMX review: To give other players the option to enjoy the game from the start, not getting stuck and losing the motivation to play the otherwise quite cool game at all.
I "admit", that I also had fun experimenting around, but in the case of Xulima for example I could only get the data by using some file edits (cheats) in an earlier beta version back then. At release it wouldn't have been possible to get an overview like that (including which skills become available for each class)

 

[Zloth]

You can target folks via the list at the top (that shows attack order); so covering them shouldn't be a big deal.

Depends on what you're fighting. If you're fighting a bunch of critters with the same portrait then you have to put your pointer over each one to see which is which up in the initiative list. And, of course, you can't put your cursor over the one you want to attack so you have to use the process of elimination to figure out the right portrait!

 

[NewDArt]

Well, then, let's put it the other way around.

What would you think about a game which makes you chose a character class at the start, showing you 6 different class names and no further information.
Next step you have to distribute your attribute points. You only have the attribute names (like strength) but the game does not tell you what they do.
Let's say that later in the game you find out, you will never get any additional attribute points. The way you distributed them in the beginning is final.
You also find out, that, having chosen a thief, you actually can't use good daggers in the game, as besides of dexterity, they also require some strength, which you failed to take at the start of the game.
After 20 hours you reach level 10 of …well, you don't know the max level and you unlock a special skill: poisoned daggers. But you can't learn it, because you are missing 5 skillpoints in poisoning. So…you might be able to unlock the new skill in 5 levels.
I could go on and on.

I don't think you can argue that this (hypothetical) system doesn't have any issues because the system behind it is rather deep (and let's assume that it is).
It would be fine in a rogue-like where the game is designed around dieing after 2 hours and starting over. But not for a 100h long rpg.

Are you aware that NWN/NWN2 games have manuals that explain what things do?

If you're saying they could do a better job of integrating the manual into the actual game, then that's very true - but we're talking about old games here. Back then, it wasn't common to have modern tutorials explaining everything.

But the information is available with the game.

I'm pretty sure I can argue pretty much anything, but that's not really the point here.

I'm telling you my opinion and I fully accept that you have a different opinion.

To me, it seems like you can't accept that I actually enjoy the system and that I don't think it needs to work differently for people like me.

For people like you - who seem to have a problem with the rules, even though you managed to develop a very effective character - it might be different.

You can't expect me to agree with you about everything

That said, any game can be improved - and information can always be more accessible.

In my opinion, NWN/NWN2 solved the problem with complicated PnP rules rather nicely by integrating the recommended button for every single class. Meaning, a complete n00b has a decent chance at success.

DOS2 doesn't do that, for instance - and a complete n00b would have much more of a challenge doing well.

Is that a problem? Not for me.

I ENJOY the process of discovering rules and mechanics and I ENJOY experimenting and figuring out optimal builds. In theory, the more complicated and rich the system - the better - as long as it's not complicated for the sake of being complicated, which is another matter.

D&D is a pen and paper system. You can't expect a computer adaption to be perfect and super accessible to everyone. It's not designed for that.

That said, I think NWN/NWN2 did fine jobs adapting the rules to a real-time multiplayer environment.

Are they complicated and opaque in terms of developing unique and powerful characters? Indeed they are - and indeed they should be.

Now, let's not go in circles about differing preferences forever

 

[wolfing]

JRPGs are notoriously bad in that aspect of not showing enough info. Interestingly enough, when I've complained about it in game forums I usually get people telling me that it's a staple of the genre that shouldn't be fixed, that it's part of the mystery of the game to discover stuff on your own. I quite disagree, if it's something I have to make decisions on, I want to know exactly what everything does, and I don't want to have to go to off-game wikis or Gamefaqs to learn (and many times not even there).

 

[Maylander]

That's not true for games like D&D - because you don't have to focus on more than one stat no matter what combination of classes you pick. You just need to reach a relatively low minimum to accomplish whatever combination you want.

In D&D you don't need to focus on INT/CHA for spells - as they have inherent damage or non-ability point dependencies for the most part. You just need to reach whatever initial ceiling for the spells you want - and they'll be as powerful as can be.

Meaning, you can be a hybrid ranged/melee spellcaster without worrying about anything except your primary damage stat - depending on what you pick.

D&D is a lot more level-based than ability/skill based compared to DOS2.

Also, D&D is full of feats to compensate for multiclassing - allowing you to use Dex for damage or whatever.

Yeah, I generally enjoy the D&D approach a lot. There was only one thing that annoyed me (v 3.5): The 25 dex and very high number of feats required for full dual wielding.

So basically, almost all my hybrids (melee + something) ends up being 2h or 1h/shield, with the exception of Monks.

Anyway, that was a digression. I enjoy both D: OS2 and D&D in that regard, as both systems are fun to explore. Like I mentioned earlier: I don't even care if it's possible to trivialize the game as long as the systems themselves are fun to explore, and requires some planning to get the most out of. In short: Trivializing it by accident would be bad design, but as long as it's via careful planning it actually works for me.

 

[NewDArt]

Yeah, I generally enjoy the D&D approach a lot. There was only one thing that annoyed me (v 3.5): The 25 dex and the very high number of feats required for full dual wielding.

So basically, almost all my hybrids (melee + something) ends up being 2h or 1h/shield, with the exception of Monks.

Some classes skip the Dex requirements for dual wielding and offer the feats for free

For instance, if you go the Ranger route - you can skip the normal requirements. Of course, you're going to sacrifice something for it and will have to focus on Ranger levels for the most part, but that's the beauty of D&D - nothing great is free. But you still get a nice handful of levels for other classes and you get to focus on strength for damage/to-hit.

That's the normal route for that kind of build.

If we're talking about NWN/NWN2 - you should definitely check out the PRC stuff, as it adds a ton of D&D richness from the non-core books.

A lot of prestige classes offer the same kind of deal and are usually "mostly maxed out" after 10 levels.

 

[Maylander]

Some classes skip the Dex requirements for dual wielding and offer the feats for free

For instance, if you go the Ranger route - you can skip the normal requirements. Of course, you're going to sacrifice something for it and will have to focus on Ranger levels for the most part, but that's the beauty of D&D - nothing great is free. But you still get a nice handful of levels for other classes and you get to focus on strength for damage/to-hit.

That's the normal route for that kind of build.

If we're talking about NWN/NWN2 - you should definitely check out the PRC stuff, as it adds a ton of D&D richness from the non-core books.

A lot of prestige classes offer the same kind of deal and are usually "mostly maxed out" after 10 levels.

Yeah, if I recall correctly, Ranger had Greater at 11 and Perfect at 21 or some such thing, so I did use it occasionally at 11, but 21 was just too much, as it didn't leave much room for multiclassing.

 

[NewDArt]

Yeah, if I recall correctly, Ranger had Greater at 11 and Perfect at 21 or some such thing, so I did use it occasionally at 11, but 21 was just too much, as it didn't leave much room for multiclassing.

You can get Weapon Master to level 7 at least, which is a beast

It's probably my favorite melee prestige class in the core games.

 

[JDR13]

Personally, I detest when games allow free respecs without any consequence. I want to have to put thought into character building and for it to have meaning. To me, a game should at least include one of the following..

1. Only allow a limited number of respecs per playthrough, and that number should be very low.

2. Make the cost high enough that the player can only afford to do it once or twice.

3. Link a significant penalty to respeccing. i.e. Permanent loss of an attribute point, etc.

 

[Ripper]

Yes, I prefer an RPG to let you risk making bad builds. I would say I restarted almost every great RPG I've played - once I'd got a handle on things, I decided I didn't like my build. It's all a part of the fun, IMO.

 

[Kordanor]

@NewDArt;

There might have been a misunderstanding here though as I was talking about RPGs and design philosophy in general. NWN2 was just an example out of many. (though I wouldn’t describe it as “old” game as it hasn’t any technical limitations like 320x200 dos games have for example, where I can fully understand that you have to rely on your manual to some degree)

 

[NewDArt]

@NewDArt;

There might have been a misunderstanding here though as I was talking about RPGs and design philosophy in general. NWN2 was just an example out of many. (though I wouldn’t describe it as “old” game as it hasn’t any technical limitations like 320x200 dos games have for example, where I can fully understand that you have to rely on your manual to some degree)

I'm not sure there's a misunderstanding, we just have different preferences.

Again, NWN2 provides a manual with complete information about game rules and mechanics. Personally, I don't see the problem at all.

Not having thorough tutorials isn't a technical limitation so much as a tradition from old games.

In the past, games came with elaborate manuals and they weren't expected to be super easy to grasp. That's something that came with the mainstream transformation of the gaming industry.

NWN2 is more than 10 years old and is a typical Obsidian throwback to old-school RPGs - and therefore it's not as polished or accessible as modern RPGs. But there's a pretty lengthy tutorial that goes into a lot of detail about how the mechanics work.

Most tutorials are about playing the actual game - and the interface. Even modern tutorials don't really explain mechanics that thoroughly - in my experience.

They don't magically transfer complete knowledge of all mechanics into the brains of players. As I said before, I don't know a single rich and complex game that does that during the tutorial. Which is why I've always needed to study mechanics for a while in such games to optimize choices.

But as I've already said, I wouldn't have a problem with them explaining the actual rules a little better during the earlier stages of the game. I just don't think it would - or should - change the challenge of coming up with efficient builds.

It's a complicated and rich system - and despite what you seem to think, there's really no easy or magical way to force people to understand such a system with a pleasant tutorial.

People have to be willing to commit and study the mechanics - and they have to accept that they're going to mess up and misunderstand how things work, unless they do their homework properly.

Once again, I completely understand if that's not compelling to some people - especially people who don't enjoy replaying games with new character builds - but I absolutely love it.

As you can see, other people love it too.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to accept that I don't agree with you at all about this.

I have zero problems getting your position. You don't think it's a good approach - and you would prefer having more information delivered through the actual game so that you wouldn't make poor choices.

That's 100% ok with me.

Can we move on?

 

[Maylander]

You can get Weapon Master to level 7 at least, which is a beast

It's probably my favorite melee prestige class in the core games.

Yeah. I also like a balls-to-the-walls, high strength, Ranger (21), Frenzied (9) build, as DW with full strength is such a rare thing.

It has a few problems though:
- Quite a few misses with power attack enabled
- Can't get the final version of power attack
- Squishy due to light armor and low dex, but that is somewhat outweighed later on by the high hit points of the FB.

Still, it's fun, and it doesn't rely on heavily enchanted weapons (elemental damage), unlike most dex based DW builds.

 

[NewDArt]

I prefer Weapon Master because I think crit-based damage is better suited for the many attacks.

But, as you say - all builds have weaknesses.

Though a straight-up FB with Scythe/Greatsword, Weapon specialization, Great Cleave and Supreme Power Attack might actually be a lot stronger.

But it's also a little dull