Less than 7.8% of RPG players did the thing

[lackblogger]

So I'm ambling my way through the prologue of Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous. I come across a room that looks like any other. Suddenly I'm greeted with a pop-up!

In this room, it says with great dramatic emphasis, is an OPTIONAL beast that you can fight IF YOU WANT TO. Well... of course I want to fight it, lol. Dur. But, er, thanks for the warning? I guess?. The game will have several of these types of encounters THAT ARE ALL ENTIRELY OPTIONAL!!! Well, ok, wow, never had a game spell it out like that before, but it's still in the more tutorial section of the game, so I guess it kinda makes sense.

Anyway, of course, I die like a trooper to it several times before thinking eff this for now and get on with the game.

After rooting through the maze a bit longer I acquire some items which look like they are specifically placed as tools to aid in Water Elemental killing. Awesome.

I go back to the Elemental and die a load more times until I finally put all the necessary pieces into place and it dies in a couple of rounds.

Oooooo, the Achievement pop-up emerges at the bottom right of my screen! I've done something worthy of note it seems:

Only 7.8% of players are even playing on 'normal' (AKA Core) (official normal is actually significantly non-normal easier mode) difficulty and were motivated to kill the Water Elemental?

No, wait. It's actually less than 7.8% of players playing on Core, because a lot of those 7.8% will be playing on versions 'harder' than core, or what one might describe as hard-core.

Ah, but then perhaps many are playing a custom difficulty which is basically the same as core but classified as not-core for the sake of achievement triggering.

But then a lot of that 7.8% will just be people killing the Elemental on Core to get the achievement because they know that's how they get the achievement and are likely following a guide for it.

So, let's say maybe 4% or 5% of players were happy to just click Core difficulty and play the game and just do the routine business on a typical RPG monster?

Maybe 4 or 5 per 100 people played the game in the same mindset as myself.

I guess people normally boast or feel aggrandised when they get 'rarer' achievements like this. I dunno, when I saw this as my first achievement it just kinda made me feel small and irrelevant...

And perhaps a little depressed

I've no idea what the rest of the game is like, but, jeez, it baffles me that playing in a way that I would assume was 'normal' is so catastrophically abnormal.

I mean, there are several filters people have to have been sieved through to even start playing Wrath. You would have to be pretty clued up on RPGs generally. It's not like someone would automatically flit from Hogwarts Legacy to Wrath or Zelda to Wrath. The kind of person who would fire up Wrath would most likely be someone who knew what they were getting into, especially as it's the second game in the series, the first already filtering out the majority who more definitely wouldn't like the game.

And yet, even then, after all that filtering, it's still just 4 or 5 people out of a hundred that felt ok to just click Core and bother to figure out how to kill a monster?

TLDR:

What was your experience of The Water Elemental?

 

[JFarrell71]

I fought it a few times, lost horribly, and went on with my life and played the game for 140 more hours.

 

[purpleblob]

I'm not understanding what is such a big deal with whether defeating water elemental gives achivement or not. If you don't like it, shrug and move on?

Most of games give achivement for finishing prologue, subsequent chapters and finishing the game - compared to these, defeating this particular enemy is definitely more "achievement" worthy.

I defeated this enemy on normal and daring - even daring was tough for me, so won't try on core (at least not yet).

I play cRPGs more for story, companions and class building based on my roleplaying choices rather than maximising benefits of class/race/abilities etc. Normal (not core) difficulty was perfect for that but now I finished the game more than once, I'm slowly putting up difficulties to give myself a bit of challenge.

I generally like clearing all content and its no exception in my replays. I finished my 3rd run on daring and started 4th run on daring - I think I found water elemental a little easier to deal with than last time, so I am feeling happy - I feel like I'm learning more about class building and can overcome challenges better while still building my character the way I like it.

TLDR: I'm indifferent to unlocking achievements, but it makes me happy when I can defeat challenging enemies in higher difficulty in my subsequent playthroughs.

 

[JDR13]

I recently played through the prologue myself. I couldn't beat the water elemental, but I can't say I really put much effort into trying. Had no idea there was an achievement for it.

As for the popups, I don't see an issue. It's basically a tutorial area.

Not sure why getting the achievement made you feel that way. If anything, it should have inflated your epeen.

 

[pibbuR]

I've never paid attention to achievements in any game. Never seen the point of it. Beating the creature would be fun, but now I know my gaming skills probably aren't up to it.

pibbuR who who is reminded that he still owns games he should start playing.

 

[Pladio]

I don't know Pathfinder rules very well, tried Core didn't like it and wasn't planning on torturing myself for hours so played on normal.

I killed the Water elemental after a couple of tries.

Core difficulty adds more monsters and makes them harder. There's a monster that drains your abilities a bit later.
It destroyed my party handily on Core and then I went to normal.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I tried to fight it, failed miseably, then never visited it again. Probably that's why so few people got this achievement : They made it just too hard.

 

[Zloth]

Optional bosses are a time-honored mainstay of JRPGs. The whole point of them is to provide a big challenge for people that like them without making people that don't like them feel like they are missing out on something important and without making the player up the difficulty, which makes everything harder long-term. An achievement is a great reward for beating it. Another option is to only allow you to go after the optionals when the pathway to the final boss has opened up, so you'll only be able to use your rewards against the final boss and the other optional bosses/quests.

I tried the Water Elemental, too, got whupped (more than once), looked up the achievement, realized I wasn't going to get it because I set the difficulty to 'custom,' and moved on. I think. I've got a vague memory of finding the stuff you did and going back to kill it, but I might have just gotten whupped more slowly. <shrug>

Certain games are a little more blatant about what they're doing.

Of course, the penalty of the predicament wasn't all THAT bad, might as well leave it there until things get hard, right? But, when things get hard, taking the antidote means WASTING all that progress you made up until that point with the predicament! Untenable. Impossible!

About 22% of players finish the Dungeon of Naheulbeuk. 2.2% get the achievement. That means 90% of players are able to achieve the impossible. Isn't that inspiring?

 

[lackblogger]

I'm not entirely sure I'd make such a direct comparison to jRPGs. The entomology of how genres develop is often from the same route and most RPGs western or J do tend to have optional encounters.

In fact, as speedrunners often are at great pains to show, most content is probably optional if you really put your mind to it.

It's always been my way of playing to "if it's there, I'll take it on", it's probably why I always seem to take twice as long as the average "how long to beat" completion time for games.

Like in Pathfinder: Kingmaker, there's these bunch of Owlbears hidden behind a shrub on the witch map. Every few levels I'd pop back to have another go. It was like a quest for me, I simply wasn't happy until they were taken care of.

There wasn't an achievement there for them, it was just a classic case of exploration based reward.

 

[JDR13]

I tried the Water Elemental, too, got whupped (more than once), looked up the achievement, realized I wasn't going to get it because I set the difficulty to 'custom,' and moved on.

I dislike when an achievement is tied to a specific difficulty level, and I think it's lame that using the custom difficulty in WotR invalidates some of the achievements. Changing any of the parameters makes it "custom", and I'd wager a great many players find at least one thing they want to change from the presets.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

I never got the achievement thing in general. I pay zero attention to achievements. They seem mainly for people who want to stroke their epeen. Their sole purpose is bragging rights and nothing else, as the player themselves always know what they have achieved on their end. It's a gold star like you used to get in kindergarten for doing good work.

 

[Stingray]

I never got the achievement thing in general. I pay zero attention to achievements. They seem mainly for people who want to stroke their epeen. Their sole purpose is bragging rights and nothing else, as the player themselves always know what they have achieved on their end. It's a gold star like you used to get in kindergarten for doing good work.

Insofar as single player gaming goes, it's a cheap way for devs to add more "stuff to do" without actually adding more stuff to do. I don't even think you can say they're for bragging rights, as literally nobody else cares about your achievements in a single player game. Those who have the mental strength to ignore them entirely should do so. That said, they're still useful for seeing interesting statistical data at times, which is how they were being used in this OP of this thread.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

That's a good point, the statistical data aspect. I have seen people share their achievements on social media but these days, with mods and cheats, you can't even assume someone truly did it anyhow. Ah well it is only my opinion. Different strokes for different folks and all that. We all have things we enjoy in games. My best friend is just now heading in for the final battle in BG3 in honor mode. He has done every thing, including one of the hardest fights (house of hope), and survived. Anyhow for him he loves getting all the hardest achievements because he likes it for a goal and because he is very competitive. He doesn't make a big deal over them though. Its the "big deal" over them that doesn't make sense to me.

 

[lackblogger]

I dislike when an achievement is tied to a specific difficulty level, and I think it's lame that using the custom difficulty in WotR invalidates some of the achievements. Changing any of the parameters makes it "custom", and I'd wager a great many players find at least one thing they want to change from the presets.

Absolutely. The interesting stat to me would be knowing how many people bothered to kill the Water Elemental, not so much what difficulty level they did it on, especially as the game has, what, 6 or 7 difficulty options combined with neutralising any of them into custom simply by altering one parameter.

The % who completed the game on mostly what difficulty would make for an interesting stat on it's own. I'd love to know how many mostly played what and that would be the only time I'd be in favour of achievements related to difficulty. (and make the hunter obsessives have to play it 7 times all the way through to get 100%, lolololol).

The case of the Elemental stat is interesting because it gives an insight into the game's development. It's sort of a flaw in the design that the opening maze is described as The Prologue and is also treated as the Tutorial while at the same time it tries to assume too much untrained input from the player.

If the Water Elemental is the tutorial big-boss optional encounter, then I suspect many more people would have completed it if they'd actually properly Tutorial'ed it, such as by having your NPCs say things like "I don't think we can take it on in our current state." And "I agree, let's look around first and see what we can find that might help if we want to defeat it properly." And then have a pop-up saying "saving and reloading is encouraged in this game, try the fight now and look at why you're failing, this will provide clues as to what items you find might come in useful later in the game."

And then when you do find a useful object have the relevant NPC say "Ah, this would probably help me greatly against that Water Elemental." But have the other NPC say "Not for me, let's keep looking for more items." And then, when you've found them all and beaten the elemental, another pop-up could show saying "well done! But remember, next time you're companions won't be so helpful when you find things."

 

[purpleblob]

I dislike when an achievement is tied to a specific difficulty level, and I think it's lame that using the custom difficulty in WotR invalidates some of the achievements. Changing any of the parameters makes it "custom", and I'd wager a great many players find at least one thing they want to change from the presets.

I'm not a fan of it either (achievements tied to difficulty) but since I don't really care for achievements, it doesn't bother me too much. All my playthroughs in WotR were classified as custom since I turn off companion auto-levelling which is tied to normal and daring difficulty setting.

Insofar as single player gaming goes, it's a cheap way for devs to add more "stuff to do" without actually adding more stuff to do. I don't even think you can say they're for bragging rights, as literally nobody else cares about your achievements in a single player game. Those who have the mental strength to ignore them entirely should do so. That said, they're still useful for seeing interesting statistical data at times, which is how they were being used in this OP of this thread.

This is how I see it too - achievement = stuff to do. It also let you discover things you didn't know existed in the game.

 

[Zloth]

I dislike when an achievement is tied to a specific difficulty level, and I think it's lame that using the custom difficulty in WotR invalidates some of the achievements. Changing any of the parameters makes it "custom", and I'd wager a great many players find at least one thing they want to change from the presets.

Allowing certain custom difficulties would make a lot more sense, but then they've got to explain it. I don't think there's a lot of room in achievement text. Maybe they could say 'for higher difficulties' and then explain it better in the game?

I never got the achievement thing in general. I pay zero attention to achievements. They seem mainly for people who want to stroke their epeen. Their sole purpose is bragging rights and nothing else, as the player themselves always know what they have achieved on their end. It's a gold star like you used to get in kindergarten for doing good work.

Well, you sure won't ever understand it using language like that!

• Like @Stingray said, it adds extra goals. You might not even think of doing some activity in a game until you see there's an achievement for it.
• Similarly, it can add extra challenges. You know the achievements are possible. They can add an extra challenge of skill, an extra challenge to how you're thinking about the game, or a challenge of one type disguised as another.
• Commemorating crazy events. You shot a grenade out of somebody's hand! Taking your max hit points and AC together, the numbers come out to be a "full house" if you were playing poker! (Unfortunately, rarely used. The people that don't consider a game "finished" until they get every achievement despise this kind of achievement and down-vote because of it.)
• Showing off! Mostly among friends, but maybe even to yourself, too. You might look at this topic years after you played, look up your achievements, and find you got it! Good vibes.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

Valid points but for me personally I don't really need external validation or recognition from achievements for playing games. I make my own goals and achievements. Guess that is why it seems odd to me, especially when people make such a big deal over it.

 

[lackblogger]

Valid points but for me personally I don't really need external validation or recognition from achievements for playing games. I make my own goals and achievements. Guess that is why it seems odd to me, especially when people make such a big deal over it.

Oh, I'm the same, I don't venture into games with the aim of achievement hunting.

However, your closing statement is a bit too broad to make any sense of. I mean, they're there, you get them even if you don't look for them, it's not like not religiously ignoring them is therefore making a big deal out of them. I feel sure there's a spectrum from 'browsing with stoic acknowledgement' all the way up to 'making a big deal out of them', with most people somewhere in between.

Your perspective as communicated comes across as a bit binary that either one religiously ignores them or one makes a big deal out of them. And I don't think either of these extreme versions is really what's being discussed in this thread.

So I was, like, yes, I agree, yes, I agree, that's a good point, then, jeez! OMG that escalated quickly!

 

[wolfgrimdark]

Spending too much time on twitter so not as verbose as I normally am (text limit side effect). Anyhow some people do make a big deal about them. I don't know how many some actually is though. I have that impression in my head, perhaps from things I read online. Also as it seemed someone was upset over the achievement around the water element. Maybe I read that wrong.

I don't see much value in them myself and that is really all I should have written. But sometimes I write without thinking enough and pay the price.

 

[lackblogger]

Spending too much time on twitter so not as verbose as I normally am (text limit side effect). Anyhow some people do make a big deal about them. I don't know how many some actually is though. I have that impression in my head, perhaps from things I read online. Also as it seemed someone was upset over the achievement around the water element. Maybe I read that wrong.

I don't see much value in them myself and that is really all I should have written. But sometimes I write without thinking enough and pay the price.

I'm sorry, I'm completely lost now. If this is an interesting side topic you were having with someone else I apologise.

Yes, some people make a big deal out of Achievements, that's kinda captain obvious, yes, gottit. You don't pay any attention to them, ok, thanks for that, neither do most people.

It would help comprehension if you said who the someone was who you felt was upset about the Water Elemental achievement. I can't help you decide if you read 'it' wrong if I don't know what you're referencing.

Yes, you could have written that you don't pay any attention to achievements and left it at that, but that's not really any different to any of the larger posts you've made and I'd still be a bit baffled by the reason for contributing such information.

Did you bother to kill the Water Elemental?