Might and Magic X Legacy + DLC

[Lucky Day]

Y'now I never picked it up. I remember us talking it was really good.

 

[Dasale]

I played it before the dlc and one day will maybe replay it with the dlc (they were kind of late). They never fixed some truely annoying bugs - to be honest the coding side of the game was kind of weak but the overall story/level design was entertaining enough - though nothing earth shattering.

Bugs? It's possible that most was fixed at late DLC release. I don't remind it was a game with bugs.

If it's about slowdown in crossroads of multiple areas, yeah the problem was still here, but I hadn't a SSD nor the same computer, I wonder how it would behave with my new material.

Beside that aspect I see no reason why tag them bad dev, particularly when you didn't gave any check to the code, and consider it's a lower budget game, not some AAA gigantic budget. I bet many indie games aren't better dev. Newbie dev ok, but lower budget game and frankly make a big budget on a game with such combat system, and movement system, would certainly be a terrible error, because I doubt there's the public.

I noticed multiple Kickstarter using this approach and that was looking great or good project, that failed from far their crowd funding. I known Bard Tales IV is coming, I have doubt it will attract many players.

 

[you]

No I mean real bugs; a few clipping errors butt he most annoying one is that in some of the mazes you can trigger combat mode and not be able to attack due to barriers between you and the enemy but there was virtually no way to get out of combat mode. Also (design flaw) impossible to flee. Anyway i found the game simplisitic (more simpliistic than the earlier MM games released a decade earlier) but it was ok - i think i would give it a 7 - fun to play - maybe play again but nothing really worth remembering.

 

[TheMadGamer]

I played it twice with the DLC. On few parts in DLC I had to use some tricks I found on some forums, probably Steam. One was really almost an exploit.

Could you link to some of the "tricks and exploits" you found? Just curious to read about them.

 

[TheMadGamer]

If it's about slowdown in crossroads of multiple areas, yeah the problem was still here, but I hadn't a SSD nor the same computer, I wonder how it would behave with my new material.

I have an SSD and all around beastly computer and I can confirm for you that no, none of that helps with the slowdown and stuttering around the xroads and a some other areas. That all said, the experience of it was only mildly annoying to me, about a 1.5 on a scale of 10 where 10 is so terrible you must uninstall immediately.

 

[TheMadGamer]

Anyway i found the game simplisitic (more simpliistic than the earlier MM games released a decade earlier) but it was ok - i think i would give it a 7 - fun to play - maybe play again but nothing really worth remembering.

I was thinking about MM10 along the same lines. Something about the game didn't "feel" quite as deep, rich, or long as some of the earlier entries I played (MM3, 6, 7 come to mind).

While I concluded that MM10 probably isn't on the same level as possibly 3, but 6 & 7 for sure, there is at least one caveat. If you consider how MM10 provides quite a bit of UI conveniences that older MM titles did not have, the absence of such conveniences makes the older games take longer to complete (well for me anyway).

Just take the auto-mapping as one BIG example. The fact that the game auto maps as you go along and that you can add your own notes anywhere you want relives the player quite a bit from keeping their own hand written notes... which for me simply slows down the gameplay because I'd have to stop, get my pen and paper, write something down, and then resume. Another small example is buying spells, the game automatically filters spells you can buy for the selected character. Seems benign and not even worth mentioning, but even that helpful aspect of the UI speeds things up. There are a few others but I hopefully I've made the point.

 

[forgottenlor]

I agree the overall presentation and interface is a world better than the old DOS games (parts 3-5). That was one of the reason's I think in hindsight I was so positive in my first playthrough.

 

[you]

I wish underrail would add an auto map feature and allow user notes (on the map).

 

[ElderGnome]

I played it and enjoyed it enough but something prevented me from finishing it, I'm not sure what. I probably reached a point in the game where I thought it wasn't as much fun - like the "Deep Caverns" area in Underrail. Any mazes too labyrinthine aren't really my cup of tea. Long, winding repetition through tunnels filled without much except repeating mobs don't do it for me either.

Not that it was a "hardcore" game, just that something happened to make me go "meh" - I have more amusing items on this hard disk.

 

[Pessimeister]

Well MG, thanks to the thread and the general chatter, I've subsequently reinstalled the game. It'll probably take a week or so for me to mull over the second party options, but I'll definitely be dipping into the thick of it again sometime this year.

Plus, I don't have the certificate of completion on this PC and I'd like to add it to its brethren from MM6-9.

 

[Dasale]

Could you link to some of the "tricks and exploits" you found? Just curious to read about them.

It's long ago, and it wasn't a site of "tricks and exploits". All was found by search in Steam forum for the game. I vaguely remind, one related to a caster and you maneuver to block him far with pathfinding, that's the exploit, others was more special ideas of tactics. In general they are related to a NPC or a specific unit type, and search in Steam forum for the game should bring an answer.

 

[TheMadGamer]

Well MG, thanks to the thread and the general chatter, I've subsequently reinstalled the game.

You're welcome

If you plan to play the DLC, here is some advice:

-Make a balanced party of Might and Magic characters, two each.
-Make sure at least one of your characters can cure the following conditions:
Death
Poison
Feeblemind
Paralysis

Even better, have two characters that can deal with the above conditions. Remember, you won't be able to bring any potions or scrolls with you into the first half of the DLC so you have to rely on casters. The fire spell, Burning Determination is a great spell to have on at least one character as it prevents a bunch of conditions as long as the spell is active.

Also, during the first half of the DLC, if one of your characters die, and that character happens to be the one character in your party that can resurrect, re-load your game because there is no way to resurrect a dead character unless somebody in your party who is alive can cast the resurrect spell. This happened to me and and I tried to complete the prison section of the DLC with just 3 party members but it didn't work out.

 

[Dasale]

Anyway i found the game simplisitic (more simpliistic than the earlier MM games released a decade earlier) but it was ok - i think i would give it a 7 - fun to play - maybe play again but nothing really worth remembering.

MM released a decade earlier? MM6-8? They could be sophisticated but the gameplay of combats is very weird, for me it breaks those games.

MM3-5 released two decades before, don't have a much more sophisticated gameplay. That series always been considered as a deliberate streamlining of RPG. As I already wrote, the difference of size really makes a difference, and too often MMX didn't merged good puzzling with exploring and combats. Otherwise it's quite possible, there's a lot more tricks to find in old games.

A great aspects in MMX is the multi sides and multi range combats, which includes many ambushes. That's the best combats of the game, and it's a lot more rare in older games. In my opinion it's the only way to make those combats really fun, simple face to face show limits too quickly. That plus the great UI is probably what made look pale MM3 when I tried replay it after to have played MMX.

 

[TheMadGamer]

MM3-5 released two decades before, don't have a much more sophisticated gameplay. That series always been considered as a deliberate streamlining of RPG.

That may be the first time I've ever read that MMX was a mainstreaming of RPGs. I always put the MM games in the same category as Wizardry (though admittedly, not as sophisticated as Wizardry in general), Bard's Tale, and even the early Ultima Series (3-7).

I guess if you compared the combat mechanics of MM games to games using the D&D rule set (or similar rule sets) you could make a case that MM games are RPG-Lite compared to those. But I don't think MM games have ever been described as mainstream in terms of gameplay or sales.

 

[Dasale]

M&M3-5 was clearly mainstream, it's not what I wrote, I wrote it was a streamlining.

Combats and puzzles are rather simplified in comparison of Wyzardry series. Quests and stories and mechanics are very simple in comparison of Ultima series. I played only a few Gold Box RPG, but if I remind well, M&M3 was a lot streamlined in comparison of a Pool of Radiance, combats, stories, progression.

Now ok my point of view could be wrong, but I don't see what makes MM3-5 much more deep or complex than MMX beside the size. For me party building could offer less choice but is deeper in MMX. Combats are deeper in MMX. Ok some dungeons progression perhaps in favor of MM3-5. I don't see much else, not equipment, not managements, and party of 6 doesn't make such a difference.

But ok perhaps I don't have a right point of view, what's sure is try replay MM3 not much after 2 plays of MMX didn't show me a MM3 more deep, just bigger.

 

[Pessimeister]

I've started my second run with the game. The first time through, I beat it with the following group:
Dwarven Defender
Orc Hunter
Elven Druid
Human Freemage

This time on Warrior difficulty, I've gone for this party:

Human Mercenary (two handed/crossbow/medium armour)
Elven Bladedancer (daggers/dual wielding)
Orc Shaman (Earth/Water/Mace)
Dwarf Runepriest (Fire/Light)

I finished Act I without too many hassles, however I'm fast approaching the section that caused me some drama in Act II wandering the forest after meeting Lord Kilburn. Some of the Blackfang fights are pretty tough and I recall having to really explore and eek out experience advantages over the map everywhere possible before taking them on.

Anyway, thanks for the timely tips for overcoming the DLC, MG. That's definitely part of the plan. The game remains quite fun and I'm enjoying the familiarity that comes with diving back into the fray.

 

[greywolf00]

This was the first Might and Magic game I played (I know, I'm a failure as a PC RPG gamer). I was really impressed. It was easily one of the best games I played that year and has been a consistent recommendation to friends.

 

[Kordanor]

This time on Warrior difficulty, I've gone for this party:

Human Mercenary (two handed/crossbow/medium armour)
Elven Bladedancer (daggers/duel wielding)
Orc Shaman (Earth/Water/Mace)
Dwarf Runepriest (Fire/Light)

Not so sure if the Mercenary is a good choice. It's quite a bad class design making a character "jack of all trades" and expert of no weapon type, as the grand master skill is particularily strong. The only advantage the Mercenary has is his Class Ability to always crit, IF he attacks enemies with full HP (this also means you shouldn't shoot at the target with ranged weapons). This is especially important because you can combine it with the sword ability which causes double attacks if you crit. You have an extremely strong first strike once you reach Sword Master. But only then. If you don't have the combo of Sword+Full HP then the mercenary basically has no advantage.

Imho they made a couple of big mistakes when creating the character systems:

1) The mentioned issue with the mercenary (no GM skill and being locked to Crit combinations)
2) The Ranged Weapons Skills are almost useless (as their contribution to combat is minimal). I recommend to equip everyone with a ranged weapon and not to skill it.
2b) Therefore ranged classes make no sense (luckily they also have a melee skill at Grand Master but the Class ability is wasted)
3) They added a Tank class which focuses on tank skills. But M&M X doesn't have a tanking system (using taunt all the time isn't feasable). Key to victory is to increase HP on all characters. Characters who are unconcious don't get any XP. And it makes no sense to have just one "sturdy" character who is always still standing while all the others are lying dead on the floor, yelling "Me Tank!"
4) As mentioned before, Double Attacks are completely out of balance and stronger than everything else (Dagger Blade Dancer with double attack weapons). This is especially true as every single hit triggers all procs.

There are only few games where you have such a "simple" character system where the developer fucked up so many times and allows the player to make so many mistakes (which might only reveal later on).

 

[Pessimeister]

mmm, yeah, that's all very technical and power-gaming oriented, but useful information to consider nonetheless Kordanor, thanks. I'm doing my best to make strategic saves to avoid gaming myself into a corner. I'll just have to see how it goes. Gold is really tight at the moment which I like a lot - as it makes the choices of what to invest in after a dungeon run more vital.

The mercenary definitely isn't pulling his weight; although I'm yet to give him a decent weapon really nor have I done the Windsword promotion quest. I'm gambling on the later tier warfare abilities compensating somewhat for his lack of speciality. Shatter has been useful when it stacks; especially in combination with the Bladedancer's high destiny strikes.

I've since made it through the first two levels of the Lost City and have opened the cellar door back to Seahaven. I'm up to the "hunting Montbard" quest in Act II and are mostly now just wandering between the two towns doing minor quests and upgrading skills where I can, testing sections of the map. I just got the Bladedancer to Mastery in Dual Wield which is nice. I also lucked out with the Spectres near Sorpigal - I think the burning determination spell was key for that one. The party is at around level 16. Again, the game remains jolly fun!

 

[Kordanor]

Didn't want to discourage you.

But I also wouldn't say it's technical or powergaming. If you wanted that you'd just take 4 Bladedancers or Rangers
But for example if you ended a fight a couple of times with just the Defender alive (in your previous game) and think about "why did I chose him again?" you get to the point thinking about these mechanics.