It's entirely possible to have timers related to the kingdom (events, projects etc), but no hidden timers on the quests. There's no real reason for one to require the other.
But why would they do that? For example, Valerie's letter says the Paladin will wait at Oleg's for awhile to meet her there. You're going to not time that, so you could pass literally 2 years in-game (which is possible, the game has 5 year span) and he's still at some outskirt trading post waiting? That's just dumb. And I still have failed exactly zero hidden timer quests, so I don't know why people are complaining. If they tell you it's urgent, do it. If not, roam around or do kingdom stuff.
Another example: Octavia and Regongar spot someone drinking at the tavern that may be a spy. No timer - this person drinks there forever until you decide to do it. Timer, you have a few days to get to your own tavern from the throne room. It's not a bad design, it's actually a great one for future CRPGs to use. As long as the timers are lenient enough, which in my opinion they give you plenty of time.
It's a game, not a simulation. And as such, missed opportunity means: end of the compainion quests. No further progress. The companion's status is locked. How is that desirable? It's not even realistic.
And with respect to failures, you can miss plenty of the timers. Good for you if you dont, but that's not the reality of many other players.
It's a game, not a simulation. And as such, missed opportunity means: end of the compainion quests. No further progress. The companion's status is locked. How is that desirable? It's not even realistic.
And with respect to failures, you can miss plenty of the timers. Good for you if you dont, but that's not the reality of many other players.
It is realistic, and it's choice & consequence. Yeah it sucks that you failed a questline, but you should have done it sooner. If they remove timers on those quests then the whole time is important aspect goes away, and the game no longer has that layer of realism. It's not realistic for quest objectives to remain forever until you feel like doing them. I haven't failed any because I do them asap, and maybe the game should have more tutorials and explanations that that's what you're supposed to do. But that could be stuff you do on a 2nd run on re-load a save or something, no reason to remove the timers at all.
And of course it's half-simulation, that's half of the game systems alone. Rest, time, kingdom management, all time-based and simulation-based.
I was burnt by this hidden timer because the game threw me several urgent quests in my way all at once
Ekun disappeared when I was on my way to Vordakai's tomb. When I was done with Vordakai, Hour of Rage and the Betrayer's flight started straight away, I just didn't have time to deal with Ekun and the quest failed.
I could have finished Ekun's quest before heading off to these major quests but I really didn't know:
1. I will be locked up in a dungeon (can't get out until you finish the entire quest line) then hit by 2 major quests (one of them timed - HoR) straight away
2. Ekun's quest is on hidden timer. Yes, I could have finished his quest first before I head to the tomb, but that would mean making several detours and I had a feeling the tomb quest is much more urgent.
So yeah, while I don't mind the timer usually for the sense of urgency and realism, I don't like it in Kingmaker for hidden timer + kingdom management combo + occasional misleading quest urgency and for throwing number of urgent quests all at once.
I was burnt by this hidden timer because the game threw me several urgent quests in my way all at once
Ekun disappeared when I was on my way to Vordakai's tomb. When I was done with Vordakai, Hour of Rage and the Betrayer's flight started straight away, I just didn't have time to deal with Ekun and the quest failed.
I could have finished Ekun's quest before heading off to these major quests but I really didn't know:
1. I will be locked up in a dungeon (can't get out until you finish the entire quest line) then hit by 2 major quests (one of them timed - HoR) straight away
2. Ekun's quest is on hidden timer. Yes, I could have finished his quest first before I head to tomb, but that would mean I would had to make several detours and I had a feeling the tomb quest is much more urgent.
So yeah, while I don't mind the timer usually for the sense of urgency and realism, I don't like it in Kingmaker for hidden timer + kingdom management combo + occasional misleading quest urgency and for throwing number of urgent quests all at once.
It's weird because there are hidden variables. I did Ekun's quest well before you did, and solved it no problem. Also, the tomb quest has a countdown according to your advisors that starts at 2 months, 1 month, 3 weeks, etc., so you could have figured it out that way. Just a thought. But I didn't do the tomb quest until well after Ekun's. I did however have to keep Reg and Octavia in the group as they were near the tomb when I did their quest. I like that sort of thing.
I finished Octavia and Reg's quest well after HoR and BF. Their quest seem to have longer timer. Shorter ones are Ekun and Jubilost's. Yeah I got epic screwed over timing of quests appearing. Tomb and VV all took up so much time travelling too ( I hate that region - full of hills and mountains).
Its cool that you like the timer. I have different opinion but hey, we can just agree to disagree. We both acknowledge Kingmaker is fantastic game and enjoying the heck out of it as it is
Well without getting spoilers it's pretty apparent after Jubilost and Oct/Reg's quests why there is nothing after them. I think you can figure out why without me spelling it out. One involves a lifelong question someone wanted to ask and another loses the trail of a certain group of people they were after.
I don't get what you mean by "it's not a simulation". It actually is. It simulates time and the effects of time. Everything is essentially timed, the entire main quest itself. It's how you manage time between resting, adventuring and maintaining your kingdom. So in that sense yes, it's a simulation.
While it would be nice for the quests to continue after missing them (although in their context it would make no sense. Example:
Jubilost: A once every 1000 year event is being held by the fey! We must go or we will miss this chance forever! I must know how the gnomes can get back to the First World!
. Sure, they could program more events for if you missed that, but the game can honestly only be so large. It's more of a "reload a previous save" deal than a "completely craft even more branching quests in an already complex and multilayered companion questline".
Maybe I'm lucky that I haven't failed anything. But even if I did, I would either reload or take my L. In purpleblob's case (and this is no offense to ya, blobby), the magisters at your capital will let you know exactly how long you have left to do the
Vordakai's Tomb quest
. She didn't mention if they had given her warning or not yet. It starts at
2 months advanced warning, then 1 month, then 3 weeks and 2 weeks.
. If she went before getting warning then she went too early according to the game, which she couldn't have known since she got another seemingly urgent quest (although in my recollection of that quest, the only urgency was from the magister's warnings). So, the game could definitely do a better job of differentiating threat levels, but in that case I found it to be okay for my brain once I figured out what the heck was happening (granted, I ran into time issues, too, because my brain didn't realize *everything* was timed in my first run with the game, haha).
But to say they aren't a huge incline over 99% of RPGs that say "Oh quick, major threat coming! Hurry to 'x' location NOW!" and meanwhile you pick herbs and mushrooms for 4 months and then when you get over there they say "Thank the Gods you made it just in time!!1" "1 added for emphasis of stupidness . They could do much better to explain the game and prepare you with slightly more handholding, but the idea is a very sound one, IMHO.
I don't get what you mean by "it's not a simulation". It actually is. It simulates time and the effects of time. Everything is essentially timed, the entire main quest itself. It's how you manage time between resting, adventuring and maintaining your kingdom. So in that sense yes, it's a simulation.
While it may look simulated it certainly is not a simulation in its classical sense.
An actual situation would be having a world state and agents (NPC etc.) with certain goals and available actions. Actions change the world state. Then you press the GO button and everything runs on its own (with possible human interference).
For example the combat part in this game (as in most games) might be considered a simulation.
Actually enjoyable RPG simulations are incredibly difficiult to create. Some open world games are partly simulated but we're still decades away from enjoyable games creating stories on their own.
But why would they do that? For example, Valerie's letter says the Paladin will wait at Oleg's for awhile to meet her there. You're going to not time that, so you could pass literally 2 years in-game (which is possible, the game has 5 year span) and he's still at some outskirt trading post waiting? That's just dumb. And I still have failed exactly zero hidden timer quests, so I don't know why people are complaining. If they tell you it's urgent, do it. If not, roam around or do kingdom stuff.
Another example: Octavia and Regongar spot someone drinking at the tavern that may be a spy. No timer - this person drinks there forever until you decide to do it. Timer, you have a few days to get to your own tavern from the throne room. It's not a bad design, it's actually a great one for future CRPGs to use. As long as the timers are lenient enough, which in my opinion they give you plenty of time.
This goes for every quest in all RPGs though. The world is always in motion, so there should be timers on everything.
My point was simply that the kingdom aspect, which is the main difference in Kingmaker, could have had timers without affecting the quest structure of the game. I agree that the kingdom aspect needs timers, as it's a mini strategy game where days are effectively turns, but there's no reason Kingmaker should have a different quest structure than any other RPG.
Every argument, that does not include the kingdom, could be applied to Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment, Fallout, Divinity: Original Sin, The Elder Scrolls, Gothic, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Might & Magic and so on and so forth.
I have to admit, the quest & kingdom timers don't bother me much because I used to play strategy games, and a lot of them use such mechanics, e.g. time limits or timed attacks. So in this aspect Pathinder plays like a cRPG with strategy elements for me.
My gripe is that the game comes with no proper manual and I honestly don't find some of the in-game descriptions clear. It would be great if you could alt-tab during play to read up on some spell/ability/kingdom mechanics, because right now it's alt-tab and google it. (which is how I found these forums )
This goes for every quest in all RPGs though. The world is always in motion, so there should be timers on everything.
My point was simply that the kingdom aspect, which is the main difference in Kingmaker, could have had timers without affecting the quest structure of the game. I agree that the kingdom aspect needs timers, as it's a mini strategy game where days are effectively turns, but there's no reason Kingmaker should have a different quest structure than any other RPG.
Every argument, that does not include the kingdom, could be applied to Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment, Fallout, Divinity: Original Sin, The Elder Scrolls, Gothic, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Might & Magic and so on and so forth.
That kind of reinforces my point, hah. We are used to "the old way" in RPGs, where quests have no timers at all. Kingmaker is trying to take it to the next level by making MORE elements of the world timed, and I feel that's an incline, not a bad design. It needs some tweaking but as a core design element I like it a lot. It adds another element of realism to the game that all other RPGs lack - you have to manage time.
Then it seems we've reached a conclusion: It's required for the kingdom aspect (since it's effectively turn based), optional for the RPG parts of it, and whether or not people enjoy it is individual.
Personally, I'm not a fan of mechanics that are tied to realism. I like realism being tied to the writing and setting, but not when it comes to actual mechanics. For example:
- Timers, whether it's quest (Kingmaker), mechanic (NWN2: MotB) or dialogue related (Alpha Protocol).
- Save points, occasionally used to make players accept the consequences of their actions. Making save scumming impossible sounds nice, but it just ends up being more hassle than it's worth.
- Inventory weight. I prefer the system used in PB games, where selling stuff is mainly done to either clean up the inventory or to gain enough money to do something specific (train skills, buy a weapon, etc). The constant backtracking I end up doing in Diablo, Fallout, The Elder Scrolls and so on just annoys me. It doesn't make me picky about loot, it just means I travel a bazillion kilometers over the course of the game.
A more complete example regarding timers would be Oblivion and its infamous portals: I thoroughly dislike that design, but not because it doesn't enforce a timer. I dislike it because it's not tied to the writing. I don't mind having all the time in the world to fix it, but I do mind quest giver A going "THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED NOW!" and then the entire rest of the world completely ignores it, to the point where they're still going on about the leader of the thieves and what not, despite a huge demon portal being right outside the town.
A more complete example regarding timers would be Oblivion and its infamous portals: I thoroughly dislike that design, but not because it doesn't enforce a timer. I dislike it because it's not tied to the writing. I don't mind having all the time in the world to fix it, but I do mind quest giver A going "THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED NOW!" and then the entire rest of the world completely ignores it, to the point where they're still going on about the leader of the thieves and what not, despite a huge demon portal being right outside the town.
But that's every RPG before Kingmaker. Doesn't matter if it's Baldur's Gate. "Oh no, he escaped underneath the Thieve's Guild, go now! Find him!" Proceeds to walk halfway across the map and do Durlag's Tower instead. Come back and dang, you just missed him, but he went this way to perform some ritual! That would have been completed in the time you spent at Durlag's.
Timers alleviate this. I'm not saying Kingmaker's are perfect, but they are an upgrade over this old style of design. They should tweak them and explain the overall system more. Kingdom management needs to be explained more, too. But I'd take the quest timers over the old style, which I'm not sure I can even go back to now knowing that the whole "time" in the game just revolves around you getting to an area *when you feel like it*.
I also like the management aspects it introduces. Got 2 weeks left to do a quest? Better manage your spells wisely and rest when needed, and bring rations, etc.. This is an important part of what makes Kingmaker a special CRPG and a top CRPG for me as well. In NWN you could just rest endlessly and it never mattered one bit, even if some evil sorcerer was trying to perform a ritual in the next room. "Blast, you interrupted me!" After you rested for 2 days straight. That design is old and Owlcat is trying to push it forward, which is great for RPG gamers IMO.
But that's every RPG before Kingmaker. Doesn't matter if it's Baldur's Gate. "Oh no, he escaped underneath the Thieve's Guild, go now! Find him!" Proceeds to walk halfway across the map and do Durlag's Tower instead. Come back and dang, you just missed him, but he went this way to perform some ritual! That would have been completed in the time you spent at Durlag's.
Timers alleviate this. I'm not saying Kingmaker's are perfect, but they are an upgrade over this old style of design. They should tweak them and explain the overall system more. Kingdom management needs to be explained more, too. But I'd take the quest timers over the old style, which I'm not sure I can even go back to now knowing that the whole "time" in the game just revolves around you getting to an area *when you feel like it*.
I also like the management aspects it introduces. Got 2 weeks left to do a quest? Better manage your spells wisely and rest when needed, and bring rations, etc.. This is an important part of what makes Kingmaker a special CRPG and a top CRPG for me as well. In NWN you could just rest endlessly and it never mattered one bit, even if some evil sorcerer was trying to perform a ritual in the next room. "Blast, you interrupted me!" After you rested for 2 days straight. That design is old and Owlcat is trying to push it forward, which is great for RPG gamers IMO.
And that's where we have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's an upgrade. I don't want realism to affect the gameplay; gameplay is simply about fun to me. From my point of view, realism should only affect the actual writing and setting.
The example of Sarevok is a good one: Realistically speaking, you would never want to do Durlag's Tower. At no point in the game does that make sense. There's always something more urgent. However, that's perfectly fine to me, because the events aren't global, so there's no reason for the world to react to it.
Oblivion is different; the events are well known, and so people should react to it. In Gothic 2, the appearance of the Seekers doesn't force you to complete the game in X time; it's not like the Seekers will ever win, but the people in the world react to them by talking about them. There's also a number of events that involve them. If Oblivion had used that approach, I would have been fine with it, despite being able to spend 10 in-game years doing random stuff instead of dealing with them.
And that's where we have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's an upgrade. I don't want realism to affect the gameplay; gameplay is simply about fun to me. From my point of view, realism should only affect the actual writing and setting.
The example of Sarevok is a good one: Realistically speaking, you would never want to do Durlag's Tower. At no point in the game does that make sense. There's always something more urgent. However, that's perfectly fine to me, because the events aren't global, so there's no reason for the world to react to it.
Oblivion is different; the events are well known, and so people should react to it. In Gothic 2, the appearance of the Seekers doesn't force you to complete the game in X time; it's not like the Seekers will ever win, but the people in the world react to them by talking about them. There's also a number of events that involve them. If Oblivion had used that approach, I would have been fine with it, despite being able to spend 10 in-game years doing random stuff instead of dealing with them.
We will agree to disagree then. I feel like CRPGs should push forward in these areas. Keep in mind I'm not suggesting harsh timers for everything, or as punishing or challenging even as some in Kingmaker seem to be for others. I'm talking about pushing the idea of time as a real element in the game, I feel that is the upgrade we should be pushing towards. Dynamic events, dynamic worlds with real time elements are a natural evolution of the CRPG genre in my humble opinion. And that's all I have to say about that.
A world that really moves on while you experience the story in that world is certainly a nice goal to look forward to.
But honestly, I think you need a game master to do that in an enjoyable way. Or an AI that is capable of replacing that game master. I think the Sui Generis kickstarter was partly suggesting to go into that direction. Too early.
