PC Gamer - Bioware and Sex

[Elel]

A genuinely good RPG story does not need sex to make the story good. EA is simply using this as a crutch to bolster up a poor story.

Normally I would agree, but sexual themes are only jarring when overt. Like porn-clothes on female warriors. If you can choose whether to engage in relationships with companions, whether to consider them sexual at all, that's another matter. What can be chosen to ignore cannot be used as a crutch. Think of it as a bonus content to the game.

That aside, such bonus content can be very jarring when it's one-sided. Like, one group of players can enjoy the content, while another is left resentful that they would like to, but can't. And I'm not talking only about minorities here, as a female gamer I'm well accustomed to one-sidedness as far as such bonus content usually goes (think how sad female fans feel about Persona 4 or Rune Factory games). So I can understand minorities well. In this respect, including many options is exactly what is right to do, both humanely and commercially. Isn't complaining about that egoistic and misanthropic? Especially if you don't want it, as you say, just ignore it and leave it to others who do want it.

I wish more games were like that. Instead of overt one-sided sexuality in majority of games, I'd rather prefer to choose whether to have it or not, and which one.

 

[Ripper]

Normally I would agree, but sexual themes are only jarring when overt. Like porn-clothes on female warriors. If you can choose whether to engage in relationships with companions, whether to consider them sexual at all, that's another matter. What can be chosen to ignore cannot be used as a crutch. Think of it as a bonus content to the game.

Very well put.

One of the ironies in this debate is that I don't actually enjoy seeing gay male sexual interaction - it's not my cup of tea. If my esteemed opponent hadn't sought out and solicited the gay scene from DA2 and posted it on the previous page, I would never have seen it, and been happy in my ignorance.

As you put in your final point - let's have the romance optional, and let's include options for everyone. As far as I can tell, this is what Bioware has done. This seems to me an apolitical position to take - it only appears political when it finds itself opposed by those who want only partial representation.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

How on Earth can you speak for and quantify the positions of these notional people?


Bioware is in the business of providing people with an opportunity to roleplay and customize a character to suit their preferences; to allow them to interact and make consequential personal choices within their games. When they talk of maximizing diversity and inclusiveness, they are talking about maximizing these possibilities to suit the identities of as many customers as possible. This is a rational thing for them to do, and a USP for their marketing department. They do so in spite of pressure from political prejudice, not because of it.

You talk about their "rubbing their agenda in people's faces". I see no evidence for this. Ironically, the specific scene you linked to as Exhibit A only occurs if you clearly solicit it. This is hunting for outrage. Or possibly innocent curiosity.

Secondly, I would draw your attention to the proper definition of a fetish. Given the specific fetishes of the theology you preach, you should not be inclined to scorn others for theirs. Particularly not ones to do with blood, whippings, etc…

Bioware's inclusion of the most diverse range of identities and tastes can be explained by straightforward artistic and commercial motivations - there is no need to invoke political prejudice to understand it.

You, on the other hand, have stated plainly that sodomy, and other sexual activities, are against the law of god, and that people will burn in hell as a consequence. You DO have a very clear, self-affirmed political prejudice, and it explains what we see here very well.

Once again, apples and oranges, and I totally reject your unfair assertions and demeaning allusions about my faith and my sexual orientation. I didn't say anything when for example this year I played The Walking Dead Season 2 which happened to have a homosexual character involved in a relationship. This is one thing; however when a developer starts using a medium of entertainment for political ends and to include strong sexual proclivities of various sorts like threesomes and hiding it this is exageration.

I posted evidence of this in the last page. Even Ars Technica, a Conde Nast site that bills itself as a champion of supposed progressiveness, says that the game is much too unsubtle and cartoonesque in its allegories of contemporaries social issues.

Actually, another thing that is a bit two-faced about it is that they have kind of a schizophrenic attitude about it. The developers will talk about it, but they will only do it on mediums like Twitters that will only garner the attention of a limited number of fans. The average joe gamer who buys it has no idea what the game is about, and they certainly won't talk that this is a game with potentially controversial content on the box art and as part of the marketing.

This is not unlike what a lot of Hollywood screenwriters are doing with covert subplots featuring more or less the same sorts of unsubtle allegories and social commentaries in mainstream films.

If they were truly open about making a game featuring characters with proclivities like BSDM or threesomes they would get in trouble with the ESRB and with retailers such as Wal-Mart and Toys 'R Us. The ESRB screeners are only shown a 10 minutes roll of footage to determine what ratings a game will get. If they and retailers like Wal-Mart knew the true nature of some of the content the game would receive an AO rating and the Wal-Marts of the world would refuse to carry it. So much like you're talking about artistic freedom, which Bioware does have at the end of the day, major retailers would exercise their commercial freedom.

So this is not about making commercial sense, this is actually the reverse; the developers and writers have this agenda and they want to use their game to that end, and the marketing department of EA conceals it to make the game more palatable to an unsuspecting mainstream audience.

 

[Ripper]

It is not an unfair assertion to say that your extreme beliefs, repeated many times, can explain your motivation here - clearly they can. I did not say that is the only explanation, there are obviously a multitude of alternatives. It is up to the readers to decide, based on the content of arguments here and in the past, whether this explanation is likely. In my opinion, it is overwhelmingly likely.

All this rambling about Hollywood's "covert subplots" (I assume you mean subtexts) does little to dissuade me from this conclusion. You do realise that your every post is signed off with "Your Heavenly Father loves you and wants you to come to repentance"?

I posted evidence of this in the last page. Even Ars Technica, a Conde Nast site that bills itself as a champion of supposed progressiveness, says that the game is much too unsubtle and cartoonesque in its allegories of contemporaries social issues.

No, it doesn't say that. You would like it to say that, but actually reading it rather spoils that party. This is like seeing a face that isn't there on a piece of toast.

If they and retailers like Wal-Mart knew the true nature of some of the content the game would receive an AO rating and the Wal-Marts of the world would refuse to carry it. So much like you're talking about artistic freedom, which Bioware does have at the end of the day, major retailers would exercise their commercial freedom.

You keep making extraordinary claims based on your own imagination. How do you know that the retailers aren't aware of the content of the game? Of course they are aware! You think they haven't noticed because Bioware has cunningly concealed it by broadcasting it on Twitter? They know perfectly well, but funnily enough they don't exercise their "commercial freedom" not to sell a product that millions of non-bigoted customers want to purchase.

And I'm not "demeaning your faith". You were throwing the word "fetish" around as a pejorative, apparently oblivious to the fact that the central activity of the catholic church, the embodiment of god's spirit in a piece of bread, is the textbook definition of the word.

EDIT: Maybe we could actually get somewhere if you would answer my question from the very first page - you claimed that Bioware are indoctrinating people with the game, and I asked you what that doctrine was. Will you define that doctrine, that message, plainly, and explain your objection to it?

 

[Thorwyn99]

Normally I would agree, but sexual themes are only jarring when overt. Like porn-clothes on female warriors. If you can choose whether to engage in relationships with companions, whether to consider them sexual at all, that's another matter. What can be chosen to ignore cannot be used as a crutch. Think of it as a bonus content to the game.

Woh hey I like skimpy clothing, to be fair I think they should put more of it on the males too though.
The Koreans are becoming pretty progressive on that part

 

[Thorwyn99]

So this is not about making commercial sense, this is actually the reverse; the developers and writers have this agenda and they want to use their game to that end, and the marketing department of EA conceals it to make the game more palatable to an unsuspecting mainstream audience.

It's only about commercial sense, to think EA has any other interest but increasing sales/income is rather naive.
Despite some outliers homosexuality is pretty accepted in the mainstream and Bioware has already carved out a niche in that regard, it's only making sense to exploit it.
Also tame sexual themes don't bother no one anymore either not even the ESRB.
(Although america still seems to have that weird fetisch were frontal nudity is the devil)

And as long as the retailers don't have to fear a loss of sales/driving away customers for stocking a product they will stock it.(Look at India where the situation is much different)

There's really no loss here for EA.

 

[Turjan]

Most of the flak Bioware got for their attempts at sex scenes came from the points that you could easily slip into some of the "romances" in the ME series by just trying to be friendly and that the sex itself was done in a ham-fisted way. With graphics getting better, it's easy to slip into uncanny valley territory. The scenes have the advantage of being unintentionally funny, so they are good for a laugh in their awkwardness.

At least Bioware seems to have learned a few lessons for their new game. Nothing will happen if you don't take the clearly labeled initiative yourself. Also, the chars have personality besides being just sex objects. I've seen many people who don't really have any interest in gay sex scenes state that the Dorian character is one of the best in the whole game, very believable and with good dialog. The negative reaction to Sera seems not to be related to her being lesbian but her language and one-sided craziness. Iron Bull seems to yield more negative reactions, because he seems out of place in a fantasy game with his dialog. So things are in general better than before, though not perfect.

Of course, all of this changes the mood of the games somewhat. It's less of a fantasy game for it and more resembles some early fringe TV show where the protagonists chew on the zeitgeist. It feeds into the mass appeal of the game though.

 

[joxer]

IMO all characters are believable and with very good dialogue except...
The only one I had problems with is Blackwall, but just because I generally don't believe someone can change so drastically (don't want to spoil it, so play the game!). Still the dialogue with him, assuming you're openminded, is well done.

 

[ChienAboyeur]

Yes, there are people who want to play romance simulators and there are developers catering to them. Personally I refrain from playing romance simulators and games where substantial amounts of development time go into the development of romances.

This type of games usually rely heavily on a story.
Romancing/sex as the base for gameplay, not a big success story.

Of course, in the context of RPG's, I think the perfect place for these elements is lore. But of course it's much more complicated to weave sex and romance into the world rather than writing thousands of lines of hackneyed dialogue.

Sex and romance might be included in certain roles, leading to roleplaying. What are those roles? Not the common types. A few RPGs out there with sex and romancing as their core.

From that point, since so few roles imply sex and romance as features of their role, romance and sex happen through the personal life of an avatar.
Typically, a forest ranger role does not imply sex and romance. There is no acting out of a role when a player pushes the avatar into a romance or sex.
It happens because the player judges that romancing and sex are part of the personal life of a character living in that gameworld.

In games like Bioware's games which are about delivering a story, bypassing sex and romancing is punishing as sex and romance are essential features in storytelling.
What story come with no sex and no romance, what story come with sex and/or romance etc The second group is largely more numerous than the first group.
If someone wants to commit time to list stories from both groups, better to start with the story without sex/romance group and let it know that every other story has sex and romance in it.

 

[elikal]

God, srsly, this is a topic why? Sims had sex for decades. Nobody cares! Bioware has sex in their games. Deal with it. Don't like, don't buy. Problem solved.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

In the end,
it's not about sex.

It's about love.

It's about humans.

 

[joxer]

God, srsly, this is a topic why? Sims had sex for decades. Nobody cares! Bioware has sex in their games. Deal with it. Don't like, don't buy. Problem solved.

But Sims sex is… Not visually presented like sex in TW2, ME3 and DA3!

I have to agree however. Someone has a problem with it?
Pack up things, don't buy the game and move to India.

 

[elikal]

But Sims sex is… Not visually presented like sex in TW2, ME3 and DA3!

I have to agree however. Someone has a problem with it?
Pack up things, don't buy the game and move to India.

Ppl can close their eyes really tight and put fingers in their ears during the sex scene.

Or alternatively JUST DONT ROMANCE GAY SEX? I mean... it doesn't ALL OF A SUDDEN pop up! Like one moment you kill a Dragon the next second Dorian fucks the players OMG OMG!

No, you actually have to pursue it a pretty long time. So IF someone sees a gay scene... it's because he DECIDED to have it.

 

[joxer]

Well Varric (or was it Iron Bull) does ask Dorian

Spoiler

about weapon polishing and Dorian does tell one of them to not point their weapon at him - assuming you pick them in the party somewhere. And such stuff.

Which, of course, since we all have dirty minds, means not just one thing.
Can't remember now who exactly because Iron Bull and Varric were my standard party members while shuffling mages.

But the banter is IMO hilarious, shouldn't be censored ever and is - just a banter and humor, not sex.

To return to your sentence aimed for immaculate conception accepted only censors and moral police who don't think it's humorous:
"Don't like, don't buy. Problem solved."

 

[Hexprone]

 

[joxer]

Peh.

The nomination is deserved but this game can win it only if the vote comes from MMO grindfan audience. A game with annoying content and design fails IMO can't be GOTY. Assuming of course G means game, not graphics.

 

[Turjan]

Well, they won GOTY. Not too surprising.

 

[joxer]

They won GOTY?! DA3 won GOTY? Seriously?
Hahahhahuahauahuahuahuahuahaahaa
OMG


Did those people at GA play anything else this year? Or past 10 years?
Unbelievable. A design crime grinder with hideous controls and horrible inventory is GOTY.

Next year: GA GOTY goes to Farmville 2.

EDIT:
From here http://www.gamespot.com/articles/dr...ns-goty-at-game-awards/1100-6424005/#livefyre

Just one comment I have to agree with:

This just shows how much of a bias mainstream piece of shlt these awards are.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

These mainstream awards are just as meaningless as all these "indie dev" awards, it's about money and petty politics in both cases.

 

[joxer]

Politics definetly yes. Money… Dunno. I'd say - sex. As news, article, thread title suggests.

The irony is that it's addressed within the game.
Caution, this cutscene contains a spoiler.