Pillars of Eternity - Preview @ IGN

[JDR13]

When I'm made to play a game where I can auto-swing a sword at an enemy for a couple of minutes without dying but also without bringing that combat to a close, someone obviously thinks it's ok to waste my time.

You're exaggerating, but that's ok.

Early encounters in BG could last a little while, but it all depended on what kind of rolls you got. A level 1 fight against a wolf might last 30+ seconds, but it could also be over in 5 seconds.

 

[Sacred_Path]

You're exaggerating, but that's ok.

Early encounters in BG could last a little while, but it all depended on what kind of rolls you got. A level 1 fight against a wolf might last 30+ seconds, but it could also be over in 5 seconds.

Let me rephrase: the problem I have with starting out extremely weak is that I can't play the character I want to play. In BG, I might want to play a strong fighter who dukes it out with a two-handed sword, but the game basically doesn't allow that (or the risk of failure is quite high). So what I'll do instead is ramp up his dexterity and give him a bow because bows > everything in that game. After playing for hours and leveling up and getting magical equipment I may finally start to play that character as melee-heavy as I imagined him. That's crap. If I want to play a tank, that character must be able to absorb/ evade damage from the start for at least a little while before I have to pull him back. A mage must be able to cast spells from the start, not throw darts. And so on.

 

[JDR13]

It sounds like your problem is more about the AD&D 2nd Edition ruleset.

It definitely lends itself to a very slow pace in the early stages of character development. I happen to like that, but I can easily understand how it doesn't appeal to eveyone.

 

[Asdraguuhl]

Well, mechanics-wise, I don't put much faith in PoE… they're devising their own systems from scratch, whereas D&D has years and years of combat logistics on their side regardless of the edition.

For me it is the exact opposite. Personally, I consider The D&D rule system (particularly 2nd edition) an awful system for a Computer RPG and I agree with many of the ideas that Josh Sawyer has regarding the game mechanics.

This is one reason why combat in games such as Dragon Age and, yes, even D:OS feels so cut & dry… there's just not much depth to it as compared to D&D (especially 3.5e… but that went overboard imo). Maybe upcoming gameplay demos will surprise me.

In my case, DA:O gained a LOT of points for not using the D&D ruleset .

 

[joxer]

I'm just not ready to crown it as the new messiah of crpgs like some people seem to be doing already.

Not only it's too early to say for Eternity, but it's too early to say it about any upcoming RPG. And there are many.
Finally all those critics and "critics" will have a headache to pinpoint the best RPG in this year.

I just hope the worldwide audience after TW3 won't start flaming on Steam:
"what, another RPG? bah!"

It'd be like seeing an opposite version of myself. Another MMO? Bah. Another FPS? Bah. Another phonegame?
Bah!

 

[purpleblob]

Ttbomk Obsidian has never canceled a project that was as extensively promoted and publicized as PoE.

I was referring to massive amount of cut contents like in NWN2 and KotOR2.

 

[Sacred_Path]

I was referring to massive amount of cut contents like in NWN2 and KotOR2.

Which doesn't mean that the game isn't finished. Or at least that's sophistry I'm not going near.

"My favorite character from the beta got cut!"

"I don't find this ending satisfying!"

"This is an incomplete game!"

 

[joxer]

Sacred, you've mixed things.
Those three comments are about Mass Effect 3 release version without day1 premium DLC which is not Obsidian game.


Unfinished content in Kotor 2 was cut out because of deadlines, but IIRC it was Lucas Arts who didn't want it added back in the game with one of next patches. Fans reconstructed it.
In NWN2 there was nothing to reconstruct. Even if it was, it'd still suck.

 

[purpleblob]

Which doesn't mean that the game isn't finished. Or at least that's sophistry I'm not going near.

Ok, so if story don't make sense because of contents missing it's not considered as unfinished product? You have strange concept of unfinished games.

 

[Sacred_Path]

Ok, so if story don't make sense because of contents missing it's not considered as unfinished product? You have strange concept of unfinished games.

I think people not being satisfied with an ending and therefore calling a game unfinished has more to do with their own neuroses than the game.

 

[JDR13]

I think people not being satisfied with an ending and therefore calling a game unfinished has more to do with their own neuroses than the game.

To be fair, KotOR 2 actually was unfinished.

 

[DArtagnan]

2nd Edition AD&D (BG) isn't too interesting, but it's still way beyond the utter simplicity of Dragon Age - which was streamlined into very little. Well, the spells were pretty good - but the other classes had essentially very few interesting choices and combat was predictable for more than half the game.

Almost all the "special" encounters in Dragon Age were exactly the same - and you rarely had to rethink any strategy or your tactics. It would be 2-3 "big guys" you either dealt major damage to - or controlled by a spell in some way.

In BG, you often had to change tactics around and use your imagination.

Now, 3rd Edition D&D - that's something else, and I very much doubt PoE can come close to that.

It's hard to adapt D&D for computers, that's true - which means it's not too efficient and you can't get all the rules in there, but it's still a dream come true for people who enjoy experimenting with characters and having endless interesting choices.

If you prefer a predictable and streamlined computer system, I can appreciate that - it just means you're not really into systems and mechanics in that way.

 

[purpleblob]

I think people not being satisfied with an ending and therefore calling a game unfinished has more to do with their own neuroses than the game.

Right, because I'm so obsessed with SW game... that's funny.

 

[Sacred_Path]

To be fair, KotOR 2 actually was unfinished.

Haven't played it, but cut content doesn't automatically equal an unfinished game. And thinking this is somehow a common practice at Obs also seems baseless.

Now, 3rd Edition D&D - that's something else, and I very much doubt PoE can come close to that.

It's hard to adapt D&D for computers, that's true - which means it's not too efficient and you can't get all the rules in there, but it's still a dream come true for people who enjoy experimenting with characters and having endless interesting choices.

If you prefer a predictable and streamlined computer system, I can appreciate that - it just means you're not really into systems and mechanics in that way.

You can doubt all you want, though I doubt you have read up on the info they've given out about mechanics and classes. Characters in PoE will be way more customizable than in D&D - you just have to watch the latest previews to grasp that (high int barbarians ftw!).

Right, because I'm so obsessed with SW game… that's funny.

Let's get this straight - you think PoE will be inferior to BG mechanics wise, but you just hope they won't cut any content anyway. So you can play more of a game whose workings you don't care about. Sounds legit.

 

[Deleted User]

They may not have D&D to draw from, but I have faith in their team that they understand what makes a game like Baldur's Gate great and they will add their own version of that in PoE.

I know this. The more complex the system, the better in my eyes. I'm hoping that PoE really gives us a lot to sink our teeth into in the way of character mechanics.

 

[DArtagnan]

You can doubt all you want, though I doubt you have read up on the info they've given out about mechanics and classes. Characters in PoE will be way more customizable than in D&D - you just have to watch the latest previews to grasp that (high int barbarians ftw!).

I don't really care to know until it gets released. I'm not what you would consider an Obsidian fanboy - and I don't really think making a "new" BG is a particularly worthwhile pursuit. I consider it a safe and somewhat dull choice.

You sound like you've already made up your mind it's going to be fantastic no matter what - which is a sign of obvious bias. So, forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

Once it gets released, I'll take a good look at it. If it comes even close to 3rd Edition complexity and richness - I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

It would be the first game to accomplish that in terms of rules and mechanics, by the way.

 

[Sacred_Path]

I don't really care to know until it gets released. I'm not what you would consider an Obsidian fanboy - and I don't really think making a "new" BG is a particularly worthwhile pursuit. I consider it a safe and somewhat dull choice.

I'm more of a PoE fanboy. Obs have a mixed track record so I'm not automatically enthralled by them making game X. But there are a lot of talented people working on this game and the things they've shared so far sound very good. Btw, if you mean they're bent on making a "new BG" - they aren't. They were kinda careful with their wording in the pitch videos. This game is inspired by the Infinity Engine games - apart from that, the only thing that heavily resembles BG is that both games have a traditional fantasy background.

You sound like you've already made up your mind it's going to be fantastic no matter what - which is a sign of obvious bias. So, forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

Once it gets released, I'll take a good look at it. If it comes even close to 3rd Edition complexity and richness - I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

It would be the first game to accomplish that in terms of rules and mechanics, by the way.

Well, are you making an argument for a hypothetical game that incorporates all 3rd Edition rules (or let's say core rules even)? Then yes, such a game would be teh awsum. Nothing like that has ever been released though. If you juxtapose this with PoE's system, that's also a bit moronic because this system was made for a vidya game - so obviously, no complexity on PnP levels was ever intended or needed.

 

[DArtagnan]

I'm more of a PoE fanboy. Obs have a mixed track record so I'm not automatically enthralled by them making game X. But there are a lot of talented people working on this game and the things they've shared so far sound very good. Btw, if you mean they're bent on making a "new BG" - they aren't. They were kinda careful with their wording in the pitch videos. This game is inspired by the Infinity Engine games - apart from that, the only thing that heavily resembles BG is that both games have a traditional fantasy background.

To me, all that just means a new BG with another world/story. If you want to pretend it's all that different and ignore the massive amount of similarities - that's up to you.

Well, are you making an argument for a hypothetical game that incorporates all 3rd Edition rules (or let's say core rules even)? Then yes, such a game would be teh awsum. Nothing like that has ever been released though. If you juxtapose this with PoE's system, that's also a bit moronic because this system was made for a vidya game - so obviously, no complexity on PnP levels was ever intended or needed.

Let's try not to make irrational assumptions about what I'm talking about and then calling that fantasy moronic.

I'm doubting it will match games that have used the best parts of 3rd+ Edition and adapted it into fun systems. Games like NWN, NWN2, ToEE and DDO have all got enough of that goodness to reflect the best parts of the system.

The goodness being the richness in character diversity and the amount of completely unique effective builds you can come up with.

If PoE can match that level of richness, I'll tip my hat to it. But let's just say I don't have a lot of faith these guys doing this fan-service game really get it and would go that extra mile in terms of design, which would take a hell of a lot of work and playtesting.

 

[Sacred_Path]

To me, all that just means a new BG with another world/story. If you want to pretend it's all that different and ignore the massive amount of similarities - that's up to you.

Eh, you're talking about the "massive amount of similarities" all CRPG's share, I guess. Not really a valid complaint on a board like this.

Let's try not to make irrational assumptions about what I'm talking about and then calling that fantasy moronic.

I'm doubting it will match games that have used the best parts of 3rd+ Edition and adapted it into fun systems. Games like NWN, NWN2, ToEE and DDO have all got enough of that goodness to reflect the best parts of the system.

The goodness being the richness in character diversity and the amount of completely unique effective builds you can come up with.

If PoE can match that level of richness, I'll tip my hat to it. But let's just say I don't have a lot of faith these guys doing this fan-service game really get it and would go that extra mile in terms of design, which would take a hell of a lot of work and playtesting.

It seems a bit out of focus to debate with someone who hasn't read the first thing about a game wether that game will be as good as other games. Let's start randomly... what about NWN2 is so great and unique that PoE couldn't dream of coming close, let alone surpassing it?

If I have to go by the second paragraph... not only didn't you read up on the game, but you didn't read my post as well. I brought up the point that i.e. all attributes will be (almost) equally useful for all classes, which is a great, great improvement on D&D. Yet you claim that your average character in games like TOEE and NWN/2 had more diversity. If you're talking about wild & random multiclassing, yeah, that won't be possible in PoE. You can't create a rogue character to abuse the skill gain on level 1 if you actually intend to use that character later on as a heavy armored fighter. What you can do is raise all but a few class specific skills on all characters - no silly, munchkinny multiclassing needed.

 

[DArtagnan]

Eh, you're talking about the "massive amount of similarities" all CRPG's share, I guess. Not really a valid complaint on a board like this.

Complaint? It's an observation.

No, I'm talking about the game looking and playing like BG rather than other RPGs. Try looking at that video again - and notice the small things like the little introduction monologue, which is EXACTLY like BG. Look at the RTwP combat system, look at the character panel, the cursor, the little circles under the characters, the bartering UI and so on. It's BG all over again.

Yes, it's inspired by Infinity in such a way that it's a MODERN Infinity game with a similar distribution between combat, NPC interaction and story. It's more like BG than Icewind Dale is.

If you think all other RPGs play and look like that, cool - but it's not reality.

It seems a bit out of focus to debate with someone who hasn't read the first thing about a game wether that game will be as good as other games. Let's start randomly… what about NWN2 is so great and unique that PoE couldn't dream of coming close, let alone surpassing it?

I know what the game is trying to do even if you're in denial about it. It's fan-service and it's BG in spirit if not in pedantic detail. Pretend otherwise as you see fit.

First, you need to remember what we're talking about. We're talking about the character system - not the entirety of the game.

Ok, what NWN2 has got in that way is a decent adaption of 3.5 Edition D&D.

For one thing, NWN2 has multiclassing, which is a very, very big deal when it comes to character diversity.

I haven't said PoE can't be better than that - I'm saying I'm doubting that it will be, because it would take an enormous amount of work and focus for something that a lot of BG fans won't even care about.

If I have to go by the second paragraph… not only didn't you read up on the game, but you didn't read my post as well. I brought up the point that i.e. all attributes will be (almost) equally useful for all classes, which is a great, great improvement on D&D. Yet you claim that your average character in games like TOEE and NWN/2 had more diversity. If you're talking about wild & random multiclassing, yeah, that won't be possible in PoE. You can't create a rogue character to abuse the skill gain on level 1 if you actually intend to use that character later on as a heavy armored fighter. What you can do is raise all but a few class specific skills on all characters - no silly, munchkinny multiclassing needed.

You got it

I'm talking about multiclassing for one thing - though I don't know what "wild and random" means in this context. I've never done random or "wild" multiclassing - as that'd be pretty stupid. I tend to think long and hard to come up with a unique and satisfying strategy.

That's where the richness and diversity comes into play.

If you want to tell yourself Pillars of Eternity can't be exploited or that having attributes effect a variety of things means more diversity and richness in the character system than 3.5 D&D, that's ok with me.

I don't really see it that way.

Watching that video of PoE - it looks like a fine BG clone and they've certainly done a decent job imitating a great old classic.

The system does seem decent and will probably be good fun. But the way they've obviously locked classes down to specific combat roles smacks of modern streamlining - and that's not really for me.

But to each his own.