Planescape: Torment EE - Review

[purpleblob]

Sure did. I am just having a hard time understanding where you're coming from. Being included in Top X RPG lists is great, but do you think many modern gamers and newcomers, Steam gamers and the like are browsing some of our incredibly nerdy and mostly archaic lists? That is quite optimistic, IMO.

But still, while it is true the games are on those lists, it still does not invalidate my point. Beamdog is still creating new hype for the games and putting them into public and gamer consciousness more, encouraging new gamers to play them, and the hype they generate would not have been there otherwise. While there will always be a modicum stirring online for classic CRPGs, there is no denying that that is increased by Beamdog's work.

What I mean by "just sitting there" on GOG is that GOG, that awesome, awesome service and site, is still not doing a lot with the older games. They are supporting them to an extent, making them work on modern systems, and that is great. But the classic games there are still niche titles, and it's really a niche service. While the EE's are also niche, Beamdog is devoted to them, meaning that they are promoting them, supporting them to a much deeper level (actively patching, updating, offering deeper customer support and so on) and actively engaging with the community for these specific titles much more than GOG. And that is not a slight on GOG at all, as that is not their job. My point is that Beamdog is doing that work and promoting the games more, which takes me back to the first point I made in the above paragraph. They are generating interest and hype for those specific titles that otherwise would simply not exist.

You have made this argument before and I know where you are coming from.

I absolutely despise the quality of new contents they've added to the originals (excluding PS:T EE because there are no new contents) and don't see much value added by EE. Like I mentioned, frankly, I think they should come up with their own IP rather than inserting things that doesn't go well with the originals, including SoD.

Yes, I can see it's great for people who wants to play originals on android etc or without the mod. I respect your opinion (as in, I can see where you are coming from even though I disagree with you) but doesn't mean my opinion is wrong and unimportant. Yes, I still view them as a parasite for the reasons I stated before.

Also, I got fairly pissed about the Caddy's comment which is why I went on a rampage in this page - will you please respect people's opinion even though it's different to yours rather than make me feel like I'm a person with some kind of mental issue.

 

[purpleblob]

Really? Because it looks like that's exactly what you said.



And to be worried that future generations might be confused as to who the original creators were is just silly. Unless you're assuming those people will all be total morons who can't read.

Oh and while I'm in shit mood, let me point out, don't assume everyone can read or speak like natives. I'm not, and I had enough experience with locals making fun of my English. No, I can't set out my arguments well enough or read, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[NewDArt]

Beamdog isn't doing anyone a service by overcharging for their rather trivial work. You'd have to be a bit of a dunce to believe that.

Let's not forget that it's the same engine they've used countless times now to squeeze what they could from the nostalgia-driven crowd. Adapting it for yet another Infinity engine game with minimal asset or content work is utterly trivial in terms of the effort involved. Compare it to the average indie game that takes years of blood, sweat and tears of a actual hardship and is often sold for much less.

So, please don't think the joke you're telling yourself about how they're doing us a service is working for people with the ability to think rationally

But that doesn't mean people can't be happy about getting a streamlined version of something they want, instead of putting in a little effort and getting it much cheaper.

Had Beamdog charged 10 euro, it would arguably be a service (though not really). 15 and it would have been an ok deal, but still not a service.

20 is a cash grab.

However, let's not pretend that's unusual or pick on Beamdog for being opportunistic. 9 out of 10 games come to pass with a measure of opportunism involved, so I don't see any rational reason to single Beamdog out here. It's like bitching about McDonald's being junk food while stuffing yourself with Burger King.

 

[JDR13]

Beamdog claims they "developed" EEs while they simply "modified" originals.

Um… they did develop the EEs. That's not the same as claiming that they developed the original versions. What exactly is so confusing about that to you?

With that and the fact new generation can't tell what's new and original content, the whole will be judged as a "one package" - pretty much giving whole credit to Beamdog as a "developer" of EE.

So you're basing your argument on that you believe future generations will be too dumb to look up the differences between the originals and the EE versions. Ok.

 

[purpleblob]

Um… they did develop the EEs. That's not the same as claiming that they developed the original versions. What exactly is so confusing about that to you?

It's not confusing, it's that I have different understanding of "development" to you. Going by your definition, you might as well call modders developers too then, especially ones who worked on total conversions,

So you're basing your argument on that you believe future generations will be too dumb to look up the difference between the originals and the EE versions. Ok.

Have you heard of "lazy"?

 

[Deleted User]

You have made this argument before and I know where you are coming from.

I absolutely despise the quality of new contents they've added to the originals (excluding PS:T EE because there are no new contents) and don't see much value added by EE. Like I mentioned, frankly, I think they should come up with their own IP rather than inserting things that doesn't go well with the originals, including SoD.

Yes, I can see it's great for people who wants to play originals on android etc or without the mod. I respect your opinion (as in, I can see where you are coming from even though I disagree with you) but doesn't mean my opinion is wrong and unimportant. Yes, I still view them as a parasite for the reasons I stated before.

Also, I got fairly pissed about the Caddy's comment which is why I went on a rampage in this page - will you please respect people's opinion even though it's different to yours rather than make me feel like I'm a person with some kind of mental issue.

Well, I don't want to make anyone feel bad, so I apologize if I did that. I can also get frustrated by some of the comments I read here and other places (not just your comments, either.)

But, you didn't really address my argument here. You don't like the content they added in a few of the EE's and that is perfectly valid. However, they are still raising awareness for CRPGs in general, and that should be applauded. I mean, if you want to see more CRPGs like Baldur's Gate in the future, then I would imagine you'd want to cheer a company like Beamdog on, since there aren't really too many others doing what they are doing right now (other than the "big" Kickstarters that were successful, but even Beamdog has something they don't - Dungeons & Dragons. )

I think if we give them a chance, who knows? They could also make a kick-ass D&D CRPG that is similar to the Infinity Engine classics.

Going forward, maybe they could have all of their enhancements be toggle options as they are in the PS:T:EE. I think that would help ease some of the tensions and please more people who don't want to bother with new content and what not. But a great many do want to bother with it. At the very least they are proving that CRPGs like Baldur's Gate and the like can still be successful today and have a market, and their effort to revamp some classic RPGs alone is worth passing $20 (or more) their way, IMHO.

I mean, the bottom line of the matter is that we're dealing with a company that is trying to do something with D&D RPGs again. Classic RPGs that no one else has really done much with for almost 20 years. You're talking about guys and gals that are passionate about what they're doing. I don't think anyone at Beamdog is trying to be a parasite and think about how many sweet nickels they can make by sucking off the host of a nearly 20 year old CRPG. If they were just in it for money I'm sure they could come up with a much, much more profitable parasitic venture, like develop a cheap phone game with thousands of microtransactions or what not. So it's clear to me that they love D&D, classic CRPGs and are trying to bring more of them to the gaming market, and that for me is a cool thing. How many other devs would create an expansion for a nearly 20 year old RPG?! That is...well...it's insane. In a good way! Whether you thought it was GOTY or worst game ever, their effort deserves some recognition there. To develop for an old engine like that has to take some work and know-how considering technology has long since moved on since then. I know Obsidian had a heck of a time for awhile there trying to build the maps for Pillars of Eternity for that reason.

So, I will continue to support them, root them on and help them in my own small way. I plan on buying several more copies of this specific EE, maybe some of the older ones as well, to giveaway to others. I appreciate their desire to revitalize some older classics, and they are nice people, too, at least Charles and Lee who I've chatted a bunch with via email, and that counts to me!

This'll be my last post on the subject for now, but I just wanted to share that. You're all free to come to your own conclusions. See you on the Planes.

 

[JDR13]

It's not confusing, it's that I have different understanding of "development" to you. Going by your definition, you might as well call modders developers too then, especially ones who worked on total conversions

Many people do consider modders as types of developers since they develop mods, but that's beside the point and isn't helping your argument in the least. It's highly unlikely that any significant amount of people are confusing Beamdog as being the original developer of those games.

Have you heard of "lazy"?

I guess our descendants are doomed huh?

 

[Deleted User]

And a funny thing I thought about the "future generations will think Beamdog made the games", is that I see comments all the time on songs on YouTube or what not for original artists that have been sampled in modern music. Comments on a Curtis Mayfield song saying "He stole this from Kanye," or "This beat belongs to (insert new artist here)" when it was simply sampled from some '70s soul tune. So eh, not much you can really do about that but just shake your head and chuckle.

 

[purpleblob]

Many people do consider modders as types of developers since they develop mods, but that's beside the point and isn't helping your argument in the least. It's highly unlikely that any significant amount of people are confusing Beamdog as being the original developer of those games.

I don't think you will ever get what I'm trying to say, so not going to bother anymore. Modders did better job, there you go. All I'm going to say.

I guess our descendants are doomed huh?

Yeah, for sure. All we do is mock each other and disagreeing, humanity will go far this way.

 

[Deleted User]

I don't think you will ever get what I'm trying to say, so not going to bother anymore. Modders did better job, there you go. All I'm going to say.

So in my estimation, the modders should form a development studio. Mod the games well, enhance them, fix bugs, add new content, promote them, support them post-launch and do all the things Beamdog does. That would give Beamdog some competition then. If the modders work is that much better, they will surpass Beamdog and become top dog (get it? ) in this area.

 

[JDR13]

I don't think you will ever get what I'm trying to say, so not going to bother anymore. Modders did better job, there you go. All I'm going to say.

You don't think I can see you're trying to portray your opinion as fact? Well I'm relieved you're done for now at least.

I'm sorry if you really thought anyone was mocking you btw. I know I wasn't, and I don't think Fluent was either.

 

[NewDArt]

So in my estimation, the modders should form a development studio. Mod the games well, enhance them, fix bugs, add new content, promote them, support them post-launch and do all the things Beamdog does. That would give Beamdog some competition then. If the modders work is that much better, they will surpass Beamdog and become top dog (get it? ) in this area.

Most modders don't do the work for profit, unlike what Beamdog is obviously doing

That said, there's definitely room in this world for more opportunists as long as we have nostalgia-driven consumers. So, why not!

 

[Deleted User]

I'm sorry if you really thought anyone was mocking you btw. I know I wasn't, and I don't think Fluent was either.

Definitely not.

And DArt, I must have psuedo-nostalgia or something since I didn't grow up with these games yet I am in love with them now. Not saying that doesn't play a role with some people, but for me I am very lucky that these games are essentially fresh, brand new experiences for me.

Well, I did play maybe 10 minutes of Baldur's Gate with a high school friend who owned it many years ago. Couldn't believe the box had like, 8 discs in it? And I say I played for 10 minutes because I couldn't figure out what the hell to do in the game and quickly shut it off. It's amazing how time can change things.

 

[purpleblob]

But, you didn't really address my argument here. You don't like the content they added in a few of the EE's and that is perfectly valid. However, they are still raising awareness for CRPGs in general, and that should be applauded. I mean, if you want to see more CRPGs like Baldur's Gate in the future, then I would imagine you'd want to cheer a company like Beamdog on, since there aren't really too many others doing what they are doing right now (other than the "big" Kickstarters that were successful, but even Beamdog has something they don't - Dungeons & Dragons. )

Raising awareness can be great, yes, but it can also give a wrong impression. As I mentioned, I find added content sticking out like a sore thumb quality wise. Perhaps it's more obvious because I know what is new and original. But as I said some may not be able to tell which is new/original content (there is usually variation in quality for each characters or quests even if the whole thing is done by the single/same developer/studio) and whole game will be judged overall. Let's not forget, forgottenlor's SoD review even mentions he cannot judge the expansion on its own cause of same (IE) engine. What makes you think "added content" will be treated differently?

I think if we give them a chance, who knows? They could also make a kick-ass D&D CRPG that is similar to the Infinity Engine classics.

Only time will tell for this.

Going forward, maybe they could have all of their enhancements be toggle options as they are in the PS:T:EE. I think that would help ease some of the tensions and please more people who don't want to bother with new content and what not.

That will be nice.

I mean, the bottom line of the matter is that we're dealing with a company that is trying to do something with D&D RPGs again. Classic RPGs that no one else has really done much with for almost 20 years. You're talking about guys and gals that are passionate about what they're doing. I don't think anyone at Beamdog is trying to be a parasite and think about how many sweet nickels they can make by sucking off the host of a nearly 20 year old CRPG.

I'm not sure on this. If they are so passionate about the game, I don't see why they couldn't develop their own. D&D is great, but you don't need to be restricted to this brand only.

So, I will continue to support them, root them on and help them in my own small way. I plan on buying several more copies of this specific EE, maybe some of the older ones as well, to giveaway to others. I appreciate their desire to revitalize some older classics, and they are nice people, too, at least Charles and Lee who I've chatted a bunch with via email, and that counts to me!

Keep on with your work, Fluent. I know you are passionate about RPGs and have your own reason to support Beamdog.

Calling Beamdog a parasite was a harsh comment, yes, I admit it. Came out of emotional state of reading Caddy's post (and reading some of JDR's smug comment fueled it).

I still stand by the point that I despise new contents Beamdog added to BG EEs and that they should develop their own IP rather than tinkering with old games. And the fact they restricted purchase options (bundled vs original only). For me, I can't imagine playing BG2 and IWD1 without mods anymore so will always prefer originals over EEs (I know a lot of mods are now EE supported but not all).

But since PS:T EE has an option to turn on/off new features and I'm not so attached to mods for this one, might pick one up at later stage. I actually listened to new PS:T EE soundtrack and it was a heck of a lot better quality than the original.

 

[NewDArt]

Definitely not.

And DArt, I must have psuedo-nostalgia or something since I didn't grow up with these games yet I am in love with them now. Not saying that doesn't play a role with some people, but for me I am very lucky that these games are essentially fresh, brand new experiences for me.

I'm not saying you, in particular, are nostalgic for this game, in particular. But you obviously have a fetish with games of the distant past

But most of the target audience would be nostalgic fans.

Nothing wrong with that. I'm nostalgic myself and often buy things for that reason rather than truly believing I'm getting a great deal or the salesmen are doing me a "service"

 

[purpleblob]

You don't think I can see you're trying to portray your opinion as fact? Well I'm relieved you're done for now at least.

I'm sorry if you really thought anyone was mocking you btw. I know I wasn't, and I don't think Fluent was either.

I wasn't trying to present my "opinion" as a "fact". I was just coming from that some people may share similar view with me. Why are you relieved that I am done? Was my post so cringe worthy to read to ruin your day?

I never thought Fluent was trying to mock me. However, your posts do come across rather snarky at times. If you were not trying to mock me, then I apologise for taking it wrong.

 

[NewDArt]

I wasn't trying to present my "opinion" as a "fact". I was just coming from that some people may share similar view with me. Why are you relieved that I am done? Was my post so cringe worthy to read to ruin your day?

Don't mind him, he's not good at accepting that other opinions can be valid.

Certainly, I'm not seeing you presenting your opinion as fact anymore than the others here, myself included. You obviously believe in your opinion - as do we all.

 

[danutz_plusplus]

Here's a QA/Look at the EE of PT, with Chris Avellon and the guys at Beamdog.
Nice entertaining video.

 

[JDR13]

I wasn't trying to present my "opinion" as a "fact". I was just coming from that some people may share similar view with me. Why are you relieved that I am done? Was my post so cringe worthy to read to ruin your day?

Yes, you were, even if it was unintentional. You seem convinced that Beamdog wants to take all the credit for those games when that's obviously not true. It's just the way you stated it.

And speaking of being snarky..

Don't mind him, he's not good at accepting that other opinions can be valid.

Certainly, I'm not seeing you presenting your opinion as fact anymore than the others here, myself included. You obviously believe in your opinion - as do we all.

Irony at its best.

 

[Deleted User]

I'm not saying you, in particular, are nostalgic for this game, in particular. But you obviously have a fetish with games of the distant past

A fetish, eh? Not sure I'd go that far. But I do find older RPGs interesting to play, a lot of times because the experience is just much different than modern ones. I like seeing the games from the lens of someone who hasn't played them, has no preconceptions about them and seeing what interesting systems they use, what quirks they have and so on. It's quite educational at times, and I often discover many RPG elements that have been lost over time. It also gives me ideas for new mechanics, stories and the like. It's like archaeology, or something.

Now, if only I could put this to some practical use, that could be cool.