Skyrim - A Closer Look @ IGN

[zadokAllen]

Yes, I'm using childish playground tactics by stating that you seem to take something to heart.

This is about as much of your post that makes sense to me. The rest is just a whine - made more funny by the fact that a) it`s coming from you - and if you never seen your posts/arguments from a distance, then maybe it`s time to take a closer look
b) with few minor changes it`s a big "NO U" - a staple so lame that, as all lame staples, it can be applied to anyone - including you.

So please excuse a total lack of an `answer` - it`s obviously pointless.

If anyone wants to continue debate about Risen vs TES in terms of technical open-worldness and such then that`s a different matter.

 

[zadokAllen]

I'm not sure what part of my post has made you such a sad panda. I'm not aware of what you've already been over with PB?

That said (and without pointing to any PB games), what I'd like to see in Skyrim is an outdoor world that is contiguous - including cities and structures. You wonder into a city from the wilds seamlessly (no load screen), you then wonder into a castle seamlessly, and so on.

I`m sorry - i referred to earlier argument that started it all, the one about Piranha`s world`s superiority.

I played 360 version of Oblivion and didn`t really have a problem with streaming or framerates. Perhaps I was forgiving - but the world was simply awesome and I didn`t mind and still wouldn`t. Of course there`s room for improvement, and I`d be surprised if Skyrim didn`t fare better.

But I`ll be always forgiving as long as they keep churning true open worlds like TES and Fallout - if it was so easy to do why no one else is doing it? That`s why I took issue when you said about all these devs and their worlds - who did you have in mind?

It would be great to see some true improvements in Skyrim - but as stated many times earlier, we`re limited by the current-gen consoles…so cities/dungeons will probably still have to be loaded up…

 

[DArtagnan]

This is about as much of your post that makes sense to me. The rest is just a whine - made more funny by the fact that a) it`s coming from you - and if you never seen your posts/arguments from a distance, then maybe it`s time to take a closer look
b) with few minor changes it`s a big "NO U" - a staple so lame that, as all lame staples, it can be applied to anyone - including you.

So please excuse a total lack of an `answer` - it`s obviously pointless.

If anyone wants to continue debate about Risen vs TES in terms of technical open-worldness and such then that`s a different matter.

You're once again excused

 

[TheMadGamer]

I played 360 version of Oblivion and didn`t really have a problem with streaming or framerates. Perhaps I was forgiving - but the world was simply awesome and I didn`t mind and still wouldn`t. Of course there`s room for improvement, and I`d be surprised if Skyrim didn`t fare better.

I liked Oblivion. Was it perfect, no. But I liked it. There is probably a technical definition somewhere for 'world streaming' somewhere. But when I use it, what I mean is that there are no load screens between different environments. You transition from outdoor to indoor spaces seamlessly.

Given that definition, the next critique would be how well such streaming is performed. Is the framerate low? Is there excessive lagging, stuttering, or outright pausing? But for the sake of this thread, I'm really only referring to the former when I say 'world streaming.'

who did you have in mind?

Games that did world streaming well, in my opinion are:

Ultima VII (outdoors, indoors, dungeons all on one contiguous map!)
Gothic 1, 2, & 3
Risen

Probably more between U7 and Gothic games but just can't remember anything right now.

I still like the TES games very much for their 'sandbox' gameplay. But I've never liked all the cell loading screens. Especially in cities where you go into and out of a lot of buildings. Gives the game a very disjointed feel.

 

[Dasale]

Wow, now that looks like a forest.

It's so common and uninteresting I have seen real forest with a lot more mood. My feeling is going very bad about this game.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Well, everything has its price. E.g. the PB games themselves show an interesting lesson there. G1, G2 and Risen, where the seamless streaming worked really well, were comparably (to TES) small landmasses. In G2 (and the NOTR addon) the landmass was additionally chopped up into large chunks that were partly tied into the chapters, obviously to make the long load times in transitioning between these "worlds" as infrequent as possible. In the one truly large seamless world in the series (G3) performance was actually a real problem, I think not only on my system. For me, the game would stutter and sometimes virtually freeze trying to stream the content as I approached larger cities.

Even though G1,3 and R were small landmasses, they still required tradeoffs. E.g. they had far less detail in items than TES 3 and 4, where pretty much every item is a 3D object you can pick up and interact with. In comparison interactive objects were very limited in the G's and sometimes they even used flat textures (market stands in Khorinis). Also TES games of course featured FAR more indoor spaces overall (samey as they might have been). This is an advantage of the separate cell system, you can cram far more detail into the interiors.
The same applies to making cities separate cells, the main difference between TES 3 and 4 in that respect. Settlements in TES 3 were generally just a few houses, with few people on the streets. Larger settlements "cheated" by using large indoor areas (Vivec, Ald-Ruhn's under-Skar). Oblivion allowed larger cities by walling them off.
How did the Two World games compare, btw, I haven't played those, and they would be the only other contenders, I think?
Now, maybe there is a way to make a far better streaming engine that can do it all, I wouldn't deny that TES was also limited by their technology platform (netimmerse/gamebryo). Hardware technology certainly could help too (monster Gfx cards, SSD's, double digits GB's of RAM….), but currently developers still have to work with the current console generation, so I wouldn't expect any miracles. Still, my point is that expecting the size of a TES game with the streaming technology of a Gothic game might be courting disaster (->G3).

 

[JDR13]

It's so common and uninteresting I have seen real forest with a lot more mood. My feeling is going very bad about this game.

You're joking, right?

How about comparing it to other games, instead of real life.

 

[zadokAllen]

There is probably a technical definition somewhere for 'world streaming' somewhere. But when I use it, what I mean is that there are no load screens between different environments. You transition from outdoor to indoor spaces seamlessly.

GhanBuriGhan answers this rather well in his post above... We`d all love that, it`s just in TES-scale games it doesn`t seem possible at the moment...and there`s got to be a trade off. At least there`s no loading between outside areas (at least I can`t remember any)

Games that did world streaming well, in my opinion are:
Ultima VII (outdoors, indoors, dungeons all on one contiguous map!)
Gothic 1, 2, & 3
Risen

U7- but that`s a 2D game...different kettle of fish.
PB games - streaming`s great, but also gameworld`s smaller and your view/movement is cleverly restricted.

FO3 landmass although different style was already huge improvement over Oblivion IMO...so let`s hope Skyrim will be even better

 

[JDR13]

PB games - streaming`s great, but also gameworld`s smaller and your view/movement is cleverly restricted.

Smaller gameworld yes, but neither your view or movement are restricted in any way that's substantially different from any other open world game.

 

[guenthar]

The games by Deep Shadows (Boiling Point, White Gold, and Precursors) have far larger worlds then Oblivion and are entirely streamed and are done well. They probably have a lower budget then PB and can do that aspect better then any other game.

 

[zadokAllen]

Smaller gameworld yes, but neither your view or movement are restricted in any way that's substantially different from any other open world game.

Risen is and I assume others are, too. Compared to TES games...it`s obvious.

 

[JDR13]

Risen is and I assume others are, too. Compared to TES games…it`s obvious.

Perhaps you could explain how.

 

[zadokAllen]

By the virtue of running inside corridors that spill into larger areas. What helps is also that the island is very mountainous, which is rather handy. Occasionally you`ll get an opening - but these compared with draw distance/scale in Oblivion are...uh, hardly comparable.

I`m some 20 hrs in. Finishing the Harbour missions. If some huge plain smoothly opens up soon after this - with horse riding and all that, I`ll make a retraction & an apology

 

[JDR13]

That's a restriction of "view/movement"? I don't think so.

Now you're saying "draw distance", which isn't the same thing. Iirc Risen is capable of greater draw distance than what the default is, but you have to edit something in the config.

 

[rune_74]

The games by Deep Shadows (Boiling Point, White Gold, and Precursors) have far larger worlds then Oblivion and are entirely streamed and are done well. They probably have a lower budget then PB and can do that aspect better then any other game.

I don't know about the others but precursers runs like ass, interesting game but it has major flaws.

 

[zadokAllen]

That's a restriction of "view/movement"? I don't think so.

Now you're saying "draw distance", which isn't the same thing. Iirc Risen is capable of greater draw distance than what the default is, but you have to edit something in the config.

Well if running in canyons and constantly looking at assorted mountains isn`t restricting - programming tricks since dawn of 3D- then I don`t know what is

Tweaking draw distance would be pointless, because there`s no fog in Risen - there`s rock. The one fix I`ve seen was for grass distance - that`s different.

But if you cant`see it you cant` see it…this thread was rather interesting, perception-wise

(Also, for the -nth time, I love Risen. Top game, this.)

 

[JDR13]

Well if running in canyons and constantly looking at assorted mountains isn`t restricting - programming tricks since dawn of 3D- then I don`t know what is .

Except that it's not being used as a "trick" in Risen. If you really think PB would need to do that, it only shows your lack of experience with their other games. My advice would be to check out Gothic 3 whenever you have the time.

But if you cant`see it you cant` see it…this thread was rather interesting, perception-wise

I agree. I always find it interesting when someone insists on debating about games that they've barely played, or haven't played at all.

 

[rune_74]

I have played all the games in this thread, and they are all great in their own ways. I figure if its fun and I enjoy it thats all that matters. Could care less about the rest of the bs.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Except that it's not being used as a "trick" in Risen. If you really think PB would need to do that, it only shows your lack of experience with their other games. My advice would be to check out Gothic 3 whenever you have the time.
I agree. I always find it interesting when someone insists on debating about games that they've barely played, or haven't played at all.

I would say its true, though. Open views are rare in all the PB games except G3, and even where you have far views, a lot of geometry will remain hidden. It is also notable that graphically intense areas, e.g. dense forests in the G's are typically in enclosed areas. In addition once you are inside the large forests in G2 they use fog to limit draw distance. While the maze-like structure of the landscapes that PB makes is probably mainly for gameplay reasons, to make the relatively small areas seem larger and interesting to explore (successfully, btw!), I am sure it also helps performance to do it this way.
Bethesda used a different bag of tricks, and not all are good. Worst was the pop-in of architecture, which was really badly done in Oblivion. But I didn't notice it in FO3, so there clearly has been progress here. Morrowind had restricted draw distance anyway.

 

[JDR13]

Open areas were not rare in any of the Gothic games. I would agree that Bethesda titles have more open areas, and much larger ones, but that seems mostly due to the fact that they like to stretch their worlds out with a lot of areas that contain very little, or nothing at all.

Gothic 1&2 did use the "fog of war" to limit view distance (like Morrowind), but that was a necessity when those titles were released. Otherwise only people with very high-end systems would have been able to run those games back then. It's a moot point anyways, because you could always disable that feature if you wanted.