Skyrim - Bethesda Talks Skyrim's Paid Mods Controversy @ Gamespot

[Bedwyr]

Lol what? 2% was a ballpark estimate, and then I actually went to the trouble crunch the numbers upon your special request and got 7% which is pretty damn close. The number breakdown yielding 7% speaks for itself.

But all you really wanted to do was complain and give me shit. Not classy Bedwyr.

Good grief you flew off the handle. Thanks for the single-line nastygram too; I'll be sure to cherish it always.

I've got two problems with your numbers. First, the base game price and DLC price fluctuate independently. That means that the DLC creator is reasonably making anywhere between 2-18% depending on which item is on sale, according to those calculations. [edit] BTW: I was curious and threw numbers into a spreadsheet to check on that. It was hardly onerous and certainly doesn't warrant that kind of response.[/edit]

Second, why are you including the base game at all? The DLC creator had zip to do with the base game. You're arbitrarily deflating the percentage of the DLC cut by adding 0% of the cut for the base game and making a moral argument out of it. That's silly. You've got no real point.

 

[Bedwyr]

Aren't you in a way answering the question yourself? Bethesda is *already* profiting off the use of their game and toolset when mods "generates community interest and builds the fan base for the game". Would they be generating as much money without mods? I doubt it. I personally would not have touched anything Bethesda after Oblivion
and I've seen many others express the same sentiment. I also remember reading somewhere about there being many people who bought their games on consoles buying it again for PC for the mods and how Morrowind is still getting sales from people who want to use it's mods.

Personally though, I wouldn't mind if Bethesda got a little something. I'm really just for modders getting more (much more) if (when?) they finally do go down that route again.

Not really, no. I'm arguing that there are two different business relationships occurring that have two different common conventions.

The first is the standard developer/hobbyist that people from Mojang (Minecraft) to Squad (Kerbal Space Program) use successfully. The hobbyist gets the joy of engaging with other game players in the community and the enjoyment of creation. The developer gets the goodwill of both parties and the interest that drives further sales of the base game.

The second is actually more like a tool/creator relationship. This would be like Adobe/artist or Unreal/developer. It's nearly universal that both parties in these kinds of relationships have some kind of financial exchange whether it be a formal license, ad-supported use of the tool, or some other exchange. I argue that paid mods naturally tosses the business relationship into this latter category and that it's reasonable and natural for there to be an actual financial exchange. Once you add money and contracts into the mix, you formalize a whole lot of things and no one should expect that the tools will be offered for free.

There's one counter example that you might have me on, though. Microsoft Flight Simulator. It's the only game and/or toolset that allows or even encourages various add-ons, including for sale. It's possible that a Bethsoft game could work with this kind of arrangement. I don't think so though. I think MSFS is historically unique in that its continued existence is due primarily to Microsoft's desire to keep showcasing their primary and open gaming platform: Windows. These days the various platforms have walls around them. Some are higher, some lower.

So the tl;dr and takeaway is essentially that I don't think it's either unexpected or unreasonable for the toolset owner (Bethesda) or the platform owner (Valve) to expect compensation of some kind for the profitable use of their systems. You can argue about the level of compensation and I do think there's a real case to be made for significantly upping what the mod developer should get, but I think "all of it" is an absurd position to take, even morally.

 

[ChienAboyeur]

Some tried to distort the issue as being a case for mods must be free.

It never was. The issue always was about the share the modders got.

The PC scene is no longer about gaming, but about making money.

PC players no longer want to sit down at their desk, wasting time gaming.
They want money. Be it modding, coaching, streaming, playing professionally, the PC scene want money.

Watch out, console gamers, the cultural contamination is coming to you.

No.

On what ground? 30% is the regular cut Steam takes on anything they distribute. No reason they change anything here.

Remains 70%. Again, on that, it is economically sound that the higher share goes to Bethesda as they do create the market. The Skyrim market is a peculiar market that only exists because of them.

The highest claim modders could make is under 35%.

It is a case of subcontracting, actually. Devs, considering the PC rig landscape, give people an access to subcontracting. Which means a pay to license thing etc

 

[zahratustra]

Note how SkyUI team came back for version 5.0 with the prospect of paid mods. With paid mods canceled prematurely SkyUI 5.0 is nowhere to be seen. Like others have said, I'd gladly pay a few dollars for SkyUI 5.0, but now the SkyUI team has no incentive to update their mod. And why should they? Modding is INSANELY HARD work.

SkyUI v5.0 is available but I'm still trying to understand the argument that SkyUI team did have enough incentives to release free SkyUI v 1.0 to 4.1 but not enough to v5.0…

 

[Brumbek]

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mod...smods.com/skyrim/ajax/modfiles/?id=3863&pUp=1

Ha, LOL. I'm glad to see they finally got it done! Although it has been 3 months since mid-April. From what I've read the delay was because the paid mods system was canceled…hence not as much motivation. But that's speculation.

So respect to SkyUI for not quitting in frustration.

I still say my point remains: SkyUI 5 took 3 months to finally come out…if they had brought in money from paid mods, I bet they'd have gotten it out within weeks and also have updated it much more up to this point. But that's speculation, too.

But yes…in the end the bad people ruin delicate systems. Such is life. If we all could be trusted to put out quality mods and give good support, paid mods would be great for everyone.

Sadly the greedy and meanies must be carefully regulated. But Bethesda and Valve have proven they aren't capable or competent or caring to provide a good, safe system. So much like Judgement Day, Skyrim's paid mod failure was inevitable. That's how I see it…

 

[Roq]

The thing is, Bethesda are already making making money off the back of mods, since you need to have bought Skyrim to run them. Mods are the only reason that the game is still selling 3 years later. If they were still supporting the game and in particular the modding environment, then they might have some case, but they aren't. It just all smacks of pure greed.

 

[Brumbek]

Mods are the only reason that the game is still selling 3 years later.

That's just not true. People keep buying Skyrim because it is a totally amazing game. As much as we modders think we improve the game, the statistics show the majority of players don't even use mods, or if they use mods they only use one or two of the biggest (SkyUI).

Math to prove my point follows. Steamspy tells us Skyrim has sold 10 million copies on PC. SkyUI has about 4.5 million unique downloads between SW and Nexus. Quality World Map has about 2.8 million uniques. Unofficial Skyrim Patch has 2.8 million. Static Mesh Improvement Mod has about 2.9 million. Those are a selection of the biggest mods by far. The other 40,000 mods have exponentially less users.

Math conclusion: even the biggest mod like SkyUI is only used by less than 50% of all users, with optimistic math. Mods extend the play life of the most hardcore fans. But if mods didn't exist, people would still totally buy Skyrim. Bethesda deserves almost all the credit for Skyrim's success.

Then there's the console versions which sold millions upon millions without mods.

I'm just saying we need to be much more level-headed about this whole issue.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Bethesda - 45 percent
Valve - 30 percent
Modders - 25 percent

Wow, why the heck should Bethesda and Valve make all the money when they did none of the work.

Exactly my thought. To me, it's like parasitism.

But - the music industry is very similar in that : Artists get almost nothing, publishers get most. And then there is GEMA and VG Wort as well (here in Germany). Gaming industry is similar, too.

This parasitism is a system.

The goal behind all this is to maximize the profits by sucking the most possible out of those who participate in it. And the revenues - go to the people who are already at the top. Be rich, get richer.

 

[souha13]

Exactly my thought. To me, it's like parasitism.

But - the music industry is very similar in that : Artists get almost nothing, publishers get most. And then there is GEMA and VG Wort as well (here in Germany). Gaming industry is similar, too.

This parasitism is a system.

The goal behind all this is to maximize the profits by sucking the most possible out of those who participate in it. And the revenues - go to the people who are already at the top. Be rich, get richer.

Of course the goal is to maximize the profits. It is regular business. But parasitism is where one gains at the expense of the other. I've trouble seeing how this applies to gaming where the consumers gains fun while the producers gain money.

 

[Brumbek]

Exactly my thought. To me, it's like parasitism.

But - the music industry is very similar in that : Artists get almost nothing, publishers get most. And then there is GEMA and VG Wort as well (here in Germany). Gaming industry is similar, too.

Music is made entirely by the artists. Hence all the creativity is from the artist with the publisher only acting as a distribution service. So it stands to reason the artist should get the majority, as they do on iTunes. And as game developers do on Steam (70/30).

Skyrim mods are dependent upon Skyrim and rely on Bethesda's creative work. All the big mods are simply riffs or tweaks to Bethesda's hard work.

People are way too quick to downplay the incredible talent and creativity Bethesda put into Skyrim. Giving modders a small cut of a sale is reasonable because the modders rely on Bethesda's existing game. Each mod only tweaks the game in slight ways, even my mod which is obviously the greatest ever (a joke).

 

[Archangel]

That's just not true. People keep buying Skyrim because it is a totally amazing game. As much as we modders think we improve the game, the statistics show the majority of players don't even use mods, or if they use mods they only use one or two of the biggest (SkyUI).

Math to prove my point follows. Steamspy tells us Skyrim has sold 10 million copies on PC. SkyUI has about 4.5 million unique downloads between SW and Nexus. Quality World Map has about 2.8 million uniques. Unofficial Skyrim Patch has 2.8 million. Static Mesh Improvement Mod has about 2.9 million. Those are a selection of the biggest mods by far. The other 40,000 mods have exponentially less users.

Math conclusion: even the biggest mod like SkyUI is only used by less than 50% of all users, with optimistic math. Mods extend the play life of the most hardcore fans. But if mods didn't exist, people would still totally buy Skyrim. Bethesda deserves almost all the credit for Skyrim's success.

Then there's the console versions which sold millions upon millions without mods.

I'm just saying we need to be much more level-headed about this whole issue.

That is wrong math. What you really want is to find out how many currently active players use mods. Someone that bought the game years ago and is no longer playing it means nothing in this conversation.

 

[Brumbek]

That is wrong math. What you really want is to find out how many currently active players use mods. Someone that bought the game years ago and is no longer playing it means nothing in this conversation.

??? No. Currently active players isn't the discussion. The discussion was about whether mods play large role in the continued PC sales of Skyrim. This requires us to look at the historic usage of mods versus sales, which I posted above. We can see that most players don't even use mods in any meaningful way.

 

[Archangel]

??? No. Currently active players isn't the discussion. The discussion was about whether mods play large role in the continued PC sales of Skyrim. This requires us to look at the historic usage of mods versus sales, which I posted above. We can see that most players don't even use mods in any meaningful way.

No it does not, because most sales were done in first year or two when there were least mods to use and they were unfinished.

 

[ChienAboyeur]

where the consumers gains fun while the producers gain money.

Where the consumers might gain fun while the producers gain guaranteed money.

Mods are the only reason that the game is still selling 3 years later.

It might have been the case for Oblivion. Skyrim's mod scene has yet to reach the level of the oblivion mod scene.

Skyrim's lacks the laboratory dimension Oblivion's showed. Skyrim's is cosmetic, flavour and overhaul modding while Oblivion's added to the point that playing Oblivion with mods was playing Skyrim vanilla.

It might be one cause Bethesda looked for monetization of the scene: adding substantially to the game takes more and more effort. As a result, the skyrim scene is dried, compared to Oblivion.

 

[Roq]

??? No. Currently active players isn't the discussion. The discussion was about whether mods play large role in the continued PC sales of Skyrim. This requires us to look at the historic usage of mods versus sales, which I posted above. We can see that most players don't even use mods in any meaningful way.

It is mods that are generating sales for Skyrim on PC *now*. What happened in the past is irrelevant. The publicity surrounding Skyrim now and it's continued sales on PC is due almost entirely to mods. Even those who don't actually use mods are influenced by the publicity surrounding modding - see all those videos on you tube, for instance.

The fact is that modding has been extremely lucrative for Bethesda and has paid back their very limited investment in the tools (they are just slightly modified internal dev tools) many times over by extending the sales life of all their titles. Otherwise they wouldn't continue to make those tools available for each title. And note how everyone else now is jumping on the modding band wagon - Cities Skylines being a recent example. Mods are catapulting that title into a position it could never have attained on its own.

 

[BoboTheMighty]

Even those who don't actually use mods are influenced by the publicity surrounding modding - see all those videos on you tube, for instance.

This...the marketing budget for the majority of AAA games can go even over half of the entire cost of production...and with the mods being showcased on god knows how many youtube channels, gaming forums and video game sites...Bethesda receives all of that promotion for free.
Seriously, Brumbek, are you a Bethesda employee or something?

 

[zahratustra]

He was assimilated...

 

[lostforever]

Isn't mod writers licensing tech from Bethesda in the same way Bethesda license tech from Gamebryo or other devs from other engines such as Unreal, cry engine etc? If yes, how much does Bethesda or other devs pay these engine companies?

Having said all that, at the end of the day mod users are using Bethesda tech and Bethesda should have the right demand however much payment they want for their tech. Whether thats fair or not is another question, After all Bethesda is not forcing mod writes to create mods for Skyrim, they can go and write mods for other games....

 

[Ivanwah]

Isn't mod writers licensing tech from Bethesda in the same way Bethesda license tech from Gamebryo or other devs from other engines such as Unreal, cry engine etc? If yes, how much does Bethesda or other devs pay these engine companies?

Having said all that, at the end of the day mod users are using Bethesda tech and Bethesda should have the right demand however much payment they want for their tech. Whether thats fair or not is another question, After all Bethesda is not forcing mod writes to create mods for Skyrim, they can go and write mods for other games….

This. Also I don't see Bethesda ever fighting free mods and forcing everyone to sell them. What I see possible for the system to work is making mods free and having a paid version with extended features. For example - a gameplay altering mod is free without a SkyUI menu for customization and the paid version that has one plus a few cosmetic trinkets (like few more icon styles for SkyUI). Or, the latest version is paid and the previous ones are free. That would satisfy the audience while also making it possible for mod makers to profit. As it is now, the only people I see complaining about the percentage Bethesda takes are mod users, not a lot of makers.

 

[Drithius]

Ah, the online marketplace. Where you can legally sell an inferior product and then get a second infuse of profit when some poor group of schleps releases a mod to to fix your junk.

Hello, SkyUI.