Skyrim - What I Hate Most

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Before this, I always viewed mods as a force of good in the world.
LOL really? Mods are also a subject to Sturgeon Law :)
 
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Sometimes I think I'm the only one here who doesn't think Skyrim is either the greatest game of all time, or an absolutely terrible failure.

Yeah it has issues, but it's still really fun to play.
 
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You are not the only one Ovenall.
 
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I do agree that too many quests are forced on you. I have quests in my quest log that I don't even remember getting. This is part of the fact that these games all have to be super-huge, advertising "over 1,000++ playtime!" on the box. Oh well.

I've had a problem with the Companions quests where I couldn't get one guy to give me credit for doing his task, but for some reason that went away and I was able to finish it many hours later. I think it crashed once. That's seriously the worst things that have happened in 30+ hours of play.
 
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There more than 200 quests in Skyrim.

I you want to branch with 3 options 3 times (not that much) - then you have to record

200x3x3x3=5400 different dialog answers

This is simply not possible if you want complete voice overs.

Edit:
Better quest list.
 
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Can you give an example of a particular one you thought was badly done?

Many of the major quests essentially put you on rails. One of the worse are the Markarth ones dealing with the Forsworn. In this chain, due to the nature of most of the inhabitants of Markarth, I didn't want to help them, I wanted to help the city by removing them from it; especially that corrupt arrogant Thonar (such a dick). Of course, Bethesda wouldn't allow that. No, I had to reload, and roll sadly along, being forced to "brawl" with Dryson, some lowly thug bent on "teaching me a lesson". I especially loved the part where I'm violating the law for defending myself, because why wouldn't I defend myself with the huge sword that I carry for that express purpose?! The icing on the cake was that Dryson was an IMMORTAL THUG, and thus I could not defeat him with either blade or magic. No, Dryson's kryptonite was fists apparently, causing me to wonder why he didn't put his near invulnerability to better use (like killing dragons you lazy prick).

Another little gem is the House of Horrors, where your offered no option but to slaughter the man you offered to help. Would it have been so hard to offer an opt-out clause, say, bash down the weak wooden door? Quests like this make Bethesda look lazy, squandering an opportunity to help the player create a narrative that suits the character they want to play. After all, when you take a quest to help a Vigil of Stendarr clear a house of evil, the last thing your thinking of is getting forced to commit it.

Are all the quests bad? No, and that is what makes it all the worse. Skyrim started out great, doing a good job encouraging players to feel invested in their character. But the built-up effects of all their hand-holding really ruined it for me. Handing-holding like Immortal npcs born of Bethesda's belief that players are too inept/lazy to protect an npc, and shouldn't be "punished" by failure (players can save/load anywhere, so the punishment is nothing beyond taking too much hp damage and dying). Handing-holding like Bethesda's insistence that all players should be able to do everything, resulting in overpowered characters who the game cannot properly challenge.

The quests that are good are the ones that do not force the player to run into Bethesda's awful obsession with hand-holding. The minute the player wants to kill an npc but can't, the minute a player is stuck with a bumbling npc sidekick that does nothing but block your LOS and break stealth, the minute I'm forced into some artificial "brawl" with some thug, and I can't blow him to bits, Bethesda ruins a significant bit of the believability of their world that they worked so hard to create through the millions they invested in their impressive visuals, fully voiced acted story, and large interactive world. Had they just applied a bit of that interactivity to their npcs, allowing them to die just as the main character can, then there would have been no awful quests in Skyrim.
 
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And let's not forget "Innocence Lost" (mentioned in the article). How much effort would it have taken to give player an option to intimidate or bribe Grelod the Kind?
 
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My question is, why are none of these criteria applied to other rpg games?
 
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What? Rune, for Goddess sake! Point me to a single RPG which wasn't criticized for something or other on RPGWatch?
 
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Sometimes I think I'm the only one here who doesn't think Skyrim is either the greatest game of all time, or an absolutely terrible failure.

Yeah it has issues, but it's still really fun to play.

I'm having fun with it so far. The graphics really are a cut above anything Bethesda has been able to pull off before. My Nord guy actually looks like a badass I wouldn't want to mess with instead of a dork dressed up for a high school play. Besides the character models, the environments seem a lot better as well. Since I'm getting the same ~50 FPS on ultra in Skyrim that I got with the fallout games it makes me wonder why they weren't able to do this before. Maybe they just hired some folks in their art department who actually know what they are doing?

As far as gameplay, that seems improved to me so far as well. NPCs seem a bit more like real people to me, which is critical in a Bethesda sandbox game. Nothing hurts immersion more than not being able to accept that NPCs are people too! Right? :)

Can't really speak to the quest system everyone is complaining about because I haven't gotten far into that yet. But then, I'm not a big fan of the way quests are done in Bethesda games anyway so what does my opinion on that matter?

My only real complaints so far are the UI as I said earlier which i consider an atrocity Bethesda has perpetrated on the gaming community, and I'm surprised I don't see more people complaining about it. And... the weird looking flickering shadows that seem to be popping from one place to another several times a second. That's very disconcerting and it was making me thing my graphics driver was screwing up for a while but it seems everyone has the same issue with the shadows on ultra settings (and maybe on all settings but just not as obvious). That's really got to be fixed. Somebody should lose their job for letting that one sneak through to tarnish what is otherwise a major leap forward for Bethesda on the graphics side.
 
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I'm having fun with it so far. The graphics really are a cut above anything Bethesda has been able to pull off before. My Nord guy actually looks like a badass I wouldn't want to mess with instead of a dork dressed up for a high school play. Besides the character models, the environments seem a lot better as well. Since I'm getting the same ~50 FPS on ultra in Skyrim that I got with the fallout games it makes me wonder why they weren't able to do this before. Maybe they just hired some folks in their art department who actually know what they are doing?

As far as gameplay, that seems improved to me so far as well. NPCs seem a bit more like real people to me, which is critical in a Bethesda sandbox game. Nothing hurts immersion more than not being able to accept that NPCs are people too! Right? :)

Can't really speak to the quest system everyone is complaining about because I haven't gotten far into that yet. But then, I'm not a big fan of the way quests are done in Bethesda games anyway so what does my opinion on that matter?

My only real complaints so far are the UI as I said earlier which i consider an atrocity Bethesda has perpetrated on the gaming community, and I'm surprised I don't see more people complaining about it. And… the weird looking flickering shadows that seem to be popping from one place to another several times a second. That's very disconcerting and it was making me thing my graphics driver was screwing up for a while but it seems everyone has the same issue with the shadows on ultra settings (and maybe on all settings but just not as obvious). That's really got to be fixed. Somebody should lose their job for letting that one sneak through to tarnish what is otherwise a major leap forward for Bethesda on the graphics side.

have you tried skyui mod? It's not perfect but a big improvement. I use it with categorized favorites and better sorting mod. Makes for a pretty good ui.

AI is skyrims biggest failure imo. Especially with stealth combat and stealing. I am still having fun though at a 109 hours in.
 
Why do you think Bethesda's games are always so easy to exploit? Any ideas?

Exploiting game mechanics is a play style. Bethesda tries to cater for any and every play style. (Which is why all their games are flawed gems, since no game can be everything to everybody.)

Skyrim lets you adjust the difficulty at anytime, even in the midst of battle. Which is great. However, some people prefer to exploit game mechanics to lowering the difficulty. I guess it makes them feel clever and superior. Which is fine. You could play on easy and feel superior too, though. It's all in your mind.

Difficulty in computer games is usually about dying and retrying, which breaks immersion. Exploiting game mechanics breaks immersion too. That's why I have no patience for difficulty in games.

My main problem with Skyrim is the kind of bad writing discussed here:
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15846
 
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sakichop, thanks for the UI info. I'll look into that. I loved the darnified UI for Fallout 3 and NV, but it seems like Skyrim's UI has a lot more wrong with it than those games did. Has to be redone from scratch in my opinion, but anything that makes it less of an abomination is definitely worth a try :)

Mr Smiley: Exploiting game mechanics is a play style. Bethesda tries to cater for any and every play style.

Oh, so Bethesda's dubious and deliberate design decision to encourage exploiting game "flaws" (though I'm not sure how it can be called flawed design when they do stuff on purpose) is my fault now? With a name like that I would have thought you were claiming to have a pleasant disposition! I'm not smiling, Mr Smiley. What is it about fanboys that causes them to blame the logic spasms of their favorite devs on the people who complain about the aforementioned logic spasms? And aren't you the same guy who claimed the only reason I thought Morrowind had no plotline to speak of was because I didn't use my imagination to invent one on my own? Again, my bad - right?
 
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Oh, so Bethesda's dubious and deliberate design decision to encourage exploiting game "flaws" (though I'm not sure how it can be called flawed design when they do stuff on purpose) is my fault now? With a name like that I would have thought you were claiming to have a pleasant disposition! I'm not smiling, Mr Smiley. What is it about fanboys that causes them to blame the logic spasms of their favorite devs on the people who complain about the aforementioned logic spasms? And aren't you the same guy who claimed the only reason I thought Morrowind had no plotline to speak of was because I didn't use my imagination to invent one on my own? Again, my bad - right?
Whoa, take it easy, buddy!

I never used the words "fault" or "bad", did I? Nor did I suggest that you should invent your own plotline. (I have no idea where that came from.)

You yourself claimed to have spent "a ridiculous amount of time exploiting game engine flaws" in Morrowind.

Being a positive person, I see that as a good thing. If you spent a "ridiculous amount of time" with the game, then you must have enjoyed it. And if you spent that much time exploiting game mechanics (I don't use the word "flaws") then you must have enjoyed doing so. Which, I repeat, is fine.

You asked if I had any idea why Bethesda's games are easy to exploit, and I suggested that the games might be deliberately designed that way, to cater for your play style. Of course, the developers being incompetent is another plausible explanation. Take your pick.

My point is that exploiting game mechanics can be fun. And I still think that the story about the Nerevarine in Morrowind is rather good as far as stories in games go.
 
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