The Bard's Tale IV - Now on Kickstarter

[figment]

The Bard's Tale I was the the very first RPG I ever played so they are getting my money just from nostalgia. Muscle memory kicked in as soon as I saw the map and my fingers intuitively know how to get to the temple from the inn to the hidden trainer house just like I was 11 again.

Also happens to be the first game I learned what a hex editor was and how to use it to hack floppy disks to cheat and started be down a tech path I guess. I remember that they stored experience as ascii which is actually rather uncommon compared to most games but made it relatively easy for me as a noob to learn it.

Hoping the new version will be decent in any case. Didn't really like the Grimrock or Devil's Whiskey games so hoping they dont exactly follow that formula but I hope to be surprised in the end.

 

[Vitirr]

Wiz 8 was a very good game that had a phase based approach, if I remember correctly. I think in BT4 they want to make combat a bit more dynamic, so you can be more reactive to the effects your individual character decisions have on enemies. Sounds like it could be a fun system.

Which again is just like in MMX

Not really. If I remember correctly, in Wiz8 phased combat, you gave all your orders to your characters first for the combat round, and then the combat was executed in turns mixing your actions and your enemies's (in order of initiative or a similar stat). In M&MX (and all previous ones if I'm not mistaken) you have a pure turn based system in which each character has his action in turns (order again depends on an initiative or speed stat) but you decide the action at the precise moment that your character gets it's turn.

I prefer the pure turn based system but I don't mind a phased one like in Wiz8 either.

as for combat, I read some interviews where they explained things a bit, so this is what I gather…
Movement (exploration) is grid based, though you can switch to free form. When combat happens, the screen 'zooms out' so to speak and you get a tactical combat screen, details are not defined yet (each character could be a portrait or a full 3d representation, depending on funding).

Doesn't sound that great IMO. If I have a first person dungeon crawler game I want it to stay first person during combat too. This seems more like an isometric view for combat which I wouldn't like that much.

I have pledged and it won't make me retire my pledge but will greatly decrease my interest in the game. I'm really looking forward to something like M&M. I had lots of fun with M&MX and unfortunately I don't think we'll have another one anytime soon so I had high hopes on this.

 

[Archangel]

One thing I like is they obviously have quite a good relationship with CDPR - they're giving Witcher 1/2 away for free if you pledge in the first 24 hours. But the warm relationship between inExile, Obsidian & CDPR is very different to how we see a lot of guys in the industry doing business and very positive I think.

You forgot Larian. They are also pretty buddy buddy with InXile.

 

[JDR13]

In M&MX (and all previous ones if I'm not mistaken) you have a pure turn based system in which each character has his action in turns (order again depends on an initiative or speed stat) but you decide the action at the precise moment that your character gets it's turn.

You must be thinking of something else because that's not how combat works in M&M X. There's no stat that affects character's turns afaik. Once combat begins, you give orders to all 4 characters and always in order from left to right. Though it's not always the same which character goes first, it's always a linear order afterwards.

 

[Roq]

Doesn't sound that great IMO. If I have a first person dungeon crawler game I want it to stay first person during combat too. This seems more like an isometric view for combat which I wouldn't like that much.

Does need clarification. They don't appear to be talking about switching to an *isometric* tactical screen - how could that work if all the characters were just portraits? Maybe they are just talking about a shift in camera position, but again if it was a shift to third person that would require you to be able to see your individual characters, so they would need to be modelled.

 

[Vitirr]

Which again is just like in MMX

You must be thinking of something else because that's not how combat works in M&M X. There's no stat that affects character's turns afaik. Once combat begins, you give orders to all 4 characters and always in order from left to right. Though it's not always the same which character goes first, it's always a linear order afterwards.

Yes you are right about that, there's no stat controlling the order (I might have been thinking of Heroes of Might and Magic here). In fact you could choose the order that you preferred I think.

But the important thing that makes the systems different is that in M&MX, a pure turn based system, you don't give all your orders at once before they are executed, you give one order and it is executed and then you order and execute the next with the following character. In a phased combat system (at least in Wiz8) you give the orders for all your characters first and then they are executed without further control on your side until the next round.
If one of your characters is badly wounded during the execution phase you can't react to it, util the next round of course. If the enemy you were aiming to was killed by your buddy then you can't change your order (in Wiz8 it did just performed a default attack to the closest enemy I think).

The thing is, with pure turn based system you have more control which I like and don't have to predict the outcome of actions that much. With phased combat you gain some speed and the system is more realistic, though I prefer by far the extra control than realism in a game system that is very far from realism anyway.

 

[Vitirr]

Does need clarification. They don't appear to be talking about switching to an *isometric* tactical screen - how could that work if all the characters were just portraits? Maybe they are just talking about a shift in camera position, but again if it was a shift to third person that would require you to be able to see your individual characters, so they would need to be modelled.

It can work as a Heroes of Might and Magic combat board. That allows for a lot of different visual setups, from the simplest (each character is an icon) to the most complicated (as HOMM is gearing to in their last installments).

But yes, it certainly needs clarification.

 

[Roq]

Yes you are right about that, there's no stat controlling the order (I might have been thinking of Heroes of Might and Magic here). In fact you could choose the order that you preferred I think.

But the important thing that makes the systems different is that in M&MX, a pure turn based system, you don't give all your orders at once before they are executed, you give one order and it is executed and then you order and execute the next with the following character. In a phased combat system (at least in Wiz8) you give the orders for all your characters first and then they are executed without further control on your side until the next round.
If one of your characters is badly wounded during the execution phase you can't react to it, util the next round of course. If the enemy you were aiming to was killed by your buddy then you can't change your order (in Wiz8 it did just performed a default attack to the closest enemy I think).

The thing is, with pure turn based system you have more control which I like and don't have to predict the outcome of actions that much. With phased combat you gain some speed and the system is more realistic, though I prefer by far the extra control than realism in a game system that is very far from realism anyway.

In the kickstarter it says: "For The Bard’s Tale IV, we want a more dynamic experience: as soon as you decide what a character will do, they immediately act. This is the first way in which battles dynamically change, as your rolls and effects can have a variety of outcomes which might make you rethink your next action."

So it is phase based to the exctent that you make decisions for all your characters consecutively, but you see the effect of each character's choice, after you make the choice for each individual character. This could still leave room for reactions, similar to overwatch or whatever.

 

[JDR13]

But the important thing that makes the systems different is that in M&MX, a pure turn based system, you don't give all your orders at once before they are executed, you give one order and it is executed and then you order and execute the next with the following character. In a phased combat system (at least in Wiz8) you give the orders for all your characters first and then they are executed without further control on your side until the next round.
If one of your characters is badly wounded during the execution phase you can't react to it, util the next round of course. If the enemy you were aiming to was killed by your buddy then you can't change your order (in Wiz8 it did just performed a default attack to the closest enemy I think).

While the differences you point out are true, I just want to make you aware that that's still not a true turn-based system.

True TB is when all combatants, whether friend or foe, perform an action as soon as their speed allows them. ToEE would be an example.

 

[Vitirr]

I'd say that a turn based system is one in which each action is resolved at a time in turns no matter how those turns are determined. Anyway, I don't mind, I didn't intend to discuss a technical detail.

The last bit that Roc brought sounds quite weird by the way. I don't see how that makes it different from a turn based system. I certainly need more clarifications.

 

[DArtagnan]

AFAIK, turn-based combat simply means that combat happens in turns - as opposed to in real-time.

I've never heard anything about individual initiatives being a requisite for that definition.

 

[Roq]

I'd say that a turn based system is one in which each action is resolved at a time in turns no matter how those turns are determined. Anyway, I don't mind, I didn't intend to discuss a technical detail.

The last bit that Roc brought sounds quite weird by the way. I don't see how that makes it different from a turn based system. I certainly need more clarifications.

In a simple turn based system, you make a move then your opponent makes a move, then you make your next move and so on. In a standard phased based system you plan X moves where X > 1 and then when you press go all those moves are executed, your opponent replies similarly and so on.

In Bards Tales 4 it will be phase based where X is the number of your characters… But, the difference is that after each character acts there will be a resolution. For instance, if your mage casts a fireball and it backfires and injures your party, then your priest playing next will be able to cast a heal party spell that will again take effect immediately.

Ed: Note this system also allows for reactions as I mentioned earlier - for instance you could set a character to counter attack an opposing move - in fact some quite complex reaction moves could be set up, depending on how fancy InExile want to get.

 

[griniaris]

What I have seen until today are not enough for me. To be convinced to give life money I need to see the game itself.
I can't trust them enough to pay them in advance because their KS founded games are mediocre at best and not in par with their early promises.

 

[JDR13]

The last bit that Roc brought sounds quite weird by the way. I don't see how that makes it different from a turn based system. I certainly need more clarifications.

Basically, if you're giving commands to your entire party at once, and then watching as those commands are carried out, that's what most people refer to as phase-based. It's still turn-based, but it's just being recognized as a specific form of it.

This might explain it a bit better. https://torment.uservoice.com/forum...taneously-executed-turn-based-combat-also-kno

 

[you]

Loved wiz8 and wiz8 combat was a bit different than MMX. Anyways they said they would have a video of a prototype soon so maybe that will show the actual combat. But as I noted earlier, within reason, I believe they will be flexible and change things if needed.

 

[Archangel]

The turn based system will be like in Xcom. Only thing not 100% clear is if your side will get to act in order how player decides(which is how Xcom does it) or based on some party member initiative order.

 

[rune_74]

Portalarium also has got in pushing the game.

 

[Roq]

Portalarium also has got in pushing the game.

And Mark Jacobs in a Camelot Unchained news letter - really good to see all this.

 

[Pessimeister]

Portalarium also has got in pushing the game.

Not unusual at all when you consider that the original Bard's Tales had character import features into some of the early Ultima's. It's great to see the over-arching "cRPG rival companies" supporting each other and their products.

Looks like InXile will be needing to unfurl the stretch goals very soon indeed! $814,000 of the goal already covered as I type this…

 

[rjshae]

I got burned out on the first-person "party view" style games long ago. Probably not going to back this unless they surprise me with a tactical combat system.