The Bard's Tale - When RPGs Had Teeth

[DArtagnan]

Eh, dude, seems you`re hearing whatcha want to hear here… Answer to your question is "of course". I thought thats obvious, one- because I also "moved on", two - I did not imply such thing at all in my post. At least, I didn`t intend to.

I also do not need to justify anything, thank you I was just puzzled myself, because I thought I might find few more fans of going back in time, and if anywhere I think The Watch is the place to find such individuals, no?

It was more based on our previous discussion. You seem to believe that it's a matter of choice, rather than a matter of how we each respond differently to games and their technical/design states.

But I can read from your last post that you're aware of the difficulty of getting into old games. It's just a funny way you have of wording things, perhaps.

Like saying Bard's Tale doesn't have "worse graphics" just "different."

I know that can be argued, but I think it's a bit far fetched.

But, I admit it can be difficult - probably more so if you don`t have the "nostalgia" factor helping. In fact for many years I collected these old games but didn`t really play them…was scared it`ll be a chore.

I find that it goes up and down. There are times when I'm suddenly inspired to play an old game - and it turns out to be just the ticket for where I am at that stage. Then again, most of the time - I spend hours finding it, installing it, setting it up in DosBox or whatever - and I end up not playing it much at all. As I said, there has to be something really worthwhile about the experience - and I spent so many years in my youth playing these games - that I most often feel I've seen all there is to see.

That`s true - but also irrelevant/obvious. We`re talking one of the foundations, ok? Also, as you know, the crimes you listed are easily applicable to many modern titles.

I wouldn't call them crimes. Modern games have modern designs, and even the worst examples tend to take at least SOME interesting elements from strong designs that have been proven in the past.

You mention Dragon Age - and I think the story/presentation and some of the gameplay is quite sufficient to entertain me. That I don't have to automap and fiddle with trivial tasks is a good thing, because I don't think Dragon Age is strong enough to do without them. Incidentally, the amount of boring filler combat was a big weakness in DA - so we agree to an extent.

But, something new on the level of Gothic or similar - I'd be able to deal with no automapping, because the exploration is very rewarding.

Though I`m not saying I can take too much of Bard`s Tale in one sitting myself…too hardcore, this

Indeed.

But mapping was an integral part of the game itself - they intended on you doing this. So, once you agreed to this terms, it could be fun and rewarding - it was a part of a puzzle. Yeah, sometimes I hated it too - but thats normal, i just played some lightweight game for a change then.

It's about conditioning. Too many years have passed without having to do that, and to be quite honest - I don't think many games (modern or old) could really carry such a workload without becoming tiresome.

It's easier to forgive for an old game, because you know why they had to do it - and because many old games actually reward careful exploration. They just have to be more interesting than Bard's Tale.

 

[zadokAllen]

It's just a funny way you have of wording things, perhaps.

My girlfriend would agree with you

Like saying Bard's Tale doesn't have "worse graphics" just "different."

I know that can be argued, but I think it's a bit far fetched.

What I actually mean is "vintage" I think. Just like nowadays, it was games with great graphics and with crap graphics, back in the day. Now, it`s all considered crap because we have 8xAA 16xAF switched on (which, just for the record, I love too). But I prefer to look at the "good" ones as I do with old books/vinyl records/black-and-white films…the medium moved forward, but it doesn`t mean these beautiful things suddenly became less worthy.

Which is one of the reasons i appreciate the Japanese mindset so much…they seem to understand this when it comes to not only gameplay of course but graphics too. They don`t have a problem with on one hand producing games with mind-boggling visuals, and on the other paying homage to olden days with titles like 3D Dot Heroes. Or continuing the Wizardry series (and gazillion others in glorious 2D on DS/PSP)

And I`m not at all saying lack of automapping should come back. It has no place in modern games. Well, unless it`s Etrian Odyssey - Dungeon Master clone in which you draw your own map on the Nintendo DS touchscreen

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Drawing paper maps - I have fond collections of that (my biggest one was probably for the Fairy Tale Adventure….) but today I would also lack time and thus patience for that. What I do wish for though, would be more interactive maps. All this technology, and yet hardly a game that lets me as much as type a bloody note on the map, not even thinking of letting me draw or scribble something! Same goes for quest journals…

 

[blatantninja]

I loved making maps in these old games. I'd get graph paper since all the areas were based on grids. Unfortunately with today's games, it really isn't a feasible solution. It's much harder to draw a map when you can't really grid it out like that. I remember U6 being the first one that I had trouble with (still possible, but it was harder) and then U7 it became practically impossible.

 

[screeg]

I don't make excuses for old games having tedious mechanics (most often due to technological limitations), and I don't think modern indies would be improved by emulating them.

But I also don't understand folks who "don't have time" for a challenging game. There are so few games I want to play it's not really relevant to me whether a game takes a month or a year to finish. I don't play games because I want to finish them. The opposite is true. I never want a great RPG to end, since I only see one I want to play every 4 or 5 years.

 

[blatantninja]

It depends on what engages you. For some people, it is engaging to have to spend 3 consecutive nights trying to figure out exactly how to win a battle. That is challenging, but for me that is not engaging. I play RPG's for the story. I don't want it super easy, but I also don't want to spend the little time I have to play games trying to figure out intricate tactics. I want to be challanged a little in the combat (or deciding which of various options to take in the game), but I want to get past it and advance the story.

 

[Pessimeister]

All this technology, and yet hardly a game that lets me as much as type a bloody note on the map, not even thinking of letting me draw or scribble something! Same goes for quest journals…

100% agreed on the dearth of interactive automaps. Case in point: the Ultima Underworlds. (of all games, Iolo!) Those were really brilliantly made and handily very detailed. For example, I can vividly remember falling down on one of the early levels in the sewers in UW2 and encountering a bloodthirsty spider or two who were way too powerful for me early in the game. After making like a shepherd and getting the flock out of there to safety, one of the things I did immediately was to use the automap and make note of exactly where they were for future reference. Another similarly interactive journal/automap which was quite useful was in Stonekeep. Taking notes on it made it so much easier when backtracking and all the more involving as a player.

In contrast, I can't really remember a modern game where I've even felt the need to take any notes that personalise the experience, as usually journals do all the work for you.

I never meant to set off a debate about automapping, nor do I have a particularly black and white view on how exactly I'd like to see such 'old school' ideas implemented. I just think modern crpgs have so much to learn from the older classics in making the dungeon crawling experience more interesting, rather than having them serve very simple purposes. (Go in, loot, exit.)

So back to my other question - any Devil Whiskey players?

 

[pibbur]

Bard's tale II was my first cRPG and I had great fun with it. Mapping by hand included. In dialogue heavy games like the Ultimas taking notes was important (I've still got them somewhere)

I wouldn't mind doing that again. In fact, I did when I a couple of years ago played Devil Whiskey. And I wrote down important information when playing the Avernum games, although this time in Xml on my PC. Having two monitors has it's benefits, and using Multiplicity to control a separate laptop without the game losing focus is even better. But taking notes, ok with me.

Admittedly I wouldn't want to do this all the time.

@Pessimeister: Yes. Some years ago.

@Blatantninja: One of the things I remember fondly from Bard's tale II were the Herbs ("You see a herb"), which arrived 60' from you, and who liked to multiply when approaching. So I spent a lot of time figuring out how to handling those.

Ahh. The memories. Tonight I think I'll spend an hour or two reading the phone directory before going to bed.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I don't make excuses for old games having tedious mechanics (most often due to technological limitations), and I don't think modern indies would be improved by emulating them.

But I also don't understand folks who "don't have time" for a challenging game. There are so few games I want to play it's not really relevant to me whether a game takes a month or a year to finish. I don't play games because I want to finish them. The opposite is true. I never want a great RPG to end, since I only see one I want to play every 4 or 5 years.

Well I have a backlog of easily 20 games I want to play, many of them classics of the genre. When I say I have little time for gaming I really mean it - Risen took me half a year, e.g. I don't mind challenge per se, but games requiring real dedication to learn before they can be enjoyed ( e.g. dwarf fortress), or would involve hand mapping dungeons or writing quest notes simply aren't good choices under these conditions when there are so many others still left to play that do not demand this.

 

[Corwin]

I actually did some beta testing for Devil Whiskey and wrote a Review of the game for the Dot. Pity the series died so quickly.