Torment:ToN - Review @ RPGCodex

[lackblogger]

Pegasus only mentioned BG and PS:T in his post. The reason he mentioned them is because people point to them very frequently as the greatest of all time - the same doesn't generally happen for IWD. In replying to his rant, you changed the wording from his BG & PS:T to "Infinity Engine". I made an assumption which seemed reasonable at the time.

I just had a look at the codex top 50 RPGs of all time and IWD is listed as no. 22 and IWD 2 at no. 40.

IWD2 is even on IGN's top 100 RPGs of all time at no. 79

When gameranx was talking about Pillars of Eternity they said: "September 14th, 2013 was a really good day for fans of classic western RPGs like Baldur’s Gate, Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale."

On gamebanshee's to 50 of all time IWD is at 27 and IWD2 at 40

In an extensive forum discussion on shareranks about the best RPGs of all time IWD gets mentioned 11 times just on the first page and comes in at number 17 for IWD2 and 31 for IWD.

Paste ranks IWD as the 3rd best D&D rpg of all time.

If you type "best rpgs of all time icewind dale" into google you get googles of results of people talking about it in convos about best RPGs of all time.

 

[Stingray]

I just had a look at the codex top 50 RPGs of all time and IWD is listed as no. 22 and IWD 2 at no. 40.

And ToEE, which you brushed off as an unfinished game not worthy of serious consideration in relation to IE games, is above both of them at #21 Also, Arcanum at #5, Vampire Bloodlines at #6, Morrowind at #7, Gothic 2 at #9, Wizardry 8 at #10, Deus Ex at #11, JA2 at #13, etc etc. IWD games actually fared very poorly on there compared to other games released around the same time.

edit - Didn't intend to go off on a tangent about IWD not being that great though. I like them personally. But there were so many good RPGs in the late 90s/early 2000s that I can't see how they would be considered among the best of their time period, much less all time.

 

[lackblogger]

And ToEE, which you brushed off as an unfinished game not worthy of serious consideration in relation to IE games, is above both of them at #21 Also, Arcanum at #5, Vampire Bloodlines at #6, Morrowind at #7, Gothic 2 at #9, Wizardry 8 at #10. IWD games actually fared poorly compared to other games released at the same time.

You did it again, you took one line from a long post and decompartmentalised it to move the goalposts.

Your point was that you didn't view IWD as part of the 'great trilogy' of the IE games. I questioned why you held this view. You said no-one talks about it as great. I showed you proof that they do. You now go back to questioning the already solved point that the IE games were the leaders of the pack and the games everyone aspired to compete against, emulate, cash-in on, ride the coat tails of, whatever analogy you prefer. Just listing random games is bonkers, because there isn't a vampire kickstarter, there isn't a gothic kickstarter, there isn't a wizardry kickstarter, or if there is/was they're clearly not as high profile as the IE kickstarters... for... obvious... reasons...

The Divinity kickstarter was not brought about by people wanting a rehash of Divine Divinity, it's purpose and aims were nothing to do with nostalgia kickstarters. My God you're making this hard work.

Ok, ok, ok The IE games weren't the only series of games to get shafted by the 2002 change. But they were clearly the ones 'most' people gave a fuck about. How's that wording for you?

 

[Stingray]

You did it again, you took one line from a long post and decompartmentalised it to move the goalposts.

No, I had a point that pertained to the overall argument. You said the Infinity Engine games (including IWD apparently) were the last great AAA PC RPG's before the console trend, but if you look at the RPG Codex list that you brought up, there are in fact many PC AAA RPG's that came out at the same time (or even soon after) the IE games, that are ranked way higher than most of the Infinity Engine games. Only PS:T and BG2 are ranked higher than all the other RPG's that came out around the same time.

Your point was that you didn't view IWD as part of the 'great trilogy' of the IE games. I questioned why you held this view. You said no-one talks about it as great. I showed you proof that they do.

It's all relative. IWD1/2 are good, maybe even great, games in the grand scheme of things but they aren't viewed with nearly as much reverence as the other 3, on the whole.

Ok, ok, ok The IE games weren't the only series of games to get shafted by the 2002 change. But they were clearly the ones 'most' people gave a fuck about. How's that wording for you?

Fair enough, if you see it that way. But I'm not sure I do, I think there were other groups of games from the same era that people looked upon just as favorably, if not moreso, than the IE games taken as a whole (including IWD). For example, Fallout 1/2. And if the RPG Codex list of best all-time RPG's that you mentioned is any indication, the 3 Troika games are seen far more favorably than the IE games as well.

 

[lackblogger]

No, I had a point that pertained to the overall argument.

What point to the overall argument? All you seem to care about is the single line "So the IE games, unwittingly, became the last batch of dedicated PC single player games with a AAA budget.".

To which I have explained this already. But then you went on a nutjob crusade against IWD.

Apart from that you've mentioned not one bit about anything else in the post. And you're now using the codex as your sole evidence for whatever it is your nitpicking about now.

What is your point that somehow contradicts my entire reply to pegasus's meaningless rant?

 

[Stingray]

I don't have a point that contradicts your entire reply to his rant, nor was it ever my intent or goal to have one. Was primarily curious how you justified this narrative about the IE games (whether or not IWD is included) being the "last batch of dedicated PC single player games with a AAA budget", since it seemed interesting (though completely wrong) to me, as the death of PC RPGs in the Xbox era is a subject that interests me and I've thought a lot about. Anyway, I can see this "conversation" is going nowhere fast.

 

[daveyd]

Opinions are like assholes...

 

[JDR13]

If Fallout 1/2 are being looked upon more favorably than the IE games, people are seriously overdosing on nostalgia.

 

[Stingray]

Both the Fallout's are ranked above 4/5ths of the IE games (PS:T being the exception) on the RPG Codex list that lack brought up.

 

[JDR13]

Both the Fallout's are ranked above 4/5ths of the IE games (PS:T being the exception) on the RPG Codex list that lack brought up.

I don't doubt that for a moment, but the key words there are "RPG Codex".

 

[Stingray]

IGN's list which he also mentioned is:
#3 BG2, #13 PS:T, #24 BG1, #28 FO2, #34 FO1, #79 IWD2 (IWD1 not in the top 100)

GameBanshee list:
#1 PS:T, #2 BG2, #3 FO2, #4 FO1, #6 BG1, #27 IWD1, #40 IWD2

RPS did a top 50 PC RPG's list in 2015:
#2 PS:T, #3 BG2, #10 FO1 (FO2/IWD1/IWD2/BG1 not in the top 50)
Side note: #1 is Dark Souls if anyone was wondering. This list is god-awful and I feel dumber having looked at it.

 

[Pladio]

Did someone upset him, and he defected?

He was involved in too many political discussions I believe and got burned out.
Stopped posting on both forums for a while I believe and had his own blog for a while.

I guess he then preferred the codex due to the sheer size of the place compared to this one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pladio]

If Fallout 1/2 are being looked upon more favorably than the IE games, people are seriously overdosing on nostalgia.

Never liked the baldur's gate much. At the time I was not a fan of party based games and the games feel a bit too old now to me in terms of UI.

I probably should try again, but too many new games out there too.

If I do consider replaying, can someone please pm me a relatively good starting build guide and or a good place to find hints and tips ?

Don't want to bog this down into a discussion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[luj1]

And ToEE, which you brushed off as an unfinished game not worthy of serious consideration in relation to IE games, is above both of them at #21 …

Man ToEE has been so awesome. I had tons of fun with it. Firstly, it's not an easy game at all. The first time I've left the village my party got shredded by a giant lobster, lmao. I immediately fell in love. So it's definitely a must-play, even more so when you add the fantastic Circle of Eight mod pack.

I especially loved the ruleset which allows some funky interactions inside combat (stuff that isn't possible in D&D) like tripping your opponent from range with a chain, which in turn prompts automatic Combat Reflexes (attacks-of-opportunity) from surrounding companions of yours.

 

[luj1]

I'll try and respond as best I can.

Arcanum - released 2001
Vampire: Bloodlines - released 2004
ToEE (which you mentioned) - released 2003, unfinished.
Wizardry 8 - released 2001
Gothic series - Released 2001, 2002
NWN1 - prioritised tool set over single player campaign
NWN2 - Not AAA & see above.
The Witcher 1 - "Action role-playing, hack and slash"
Fallout Tactics - Released 2001
Lionheart - released 2003, unfinished.
Might & Magic IX - Released 2002
Divine Divinity - Released 2002
Beyond Divinity - Released 2004
Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor - Released 2001.

This is why I haven't gotten to play the IE games like Baldur's Gate until years later.

Wouldn't change that even if I could. Thanks for reminding me.