Risen 2 - Using Steamworks

Eisberg said:

Direct link to the article. http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html

It is a very good article, and yeah in depth.

Click to expand...

But the best pirates dont use torrent but use newsgroups and software that makes them invisible...

bemushroomed said:

DRM definetely helps, i see it all the time on the "scene" forums i frequently vist, if a game isn't cracked for the first day or first few days, there's a lot of people there buying it instead. If it's not cracked for a whole week or sometimes more, then a lot more buys it.. For many it's very important to be able to play the game the minute it's out, it's also one of the reasons people even play cracked games, to be able to get it and finish it as fast as possible.

Click to expand...

Even if the game is cracked day 1 it can help by preventing an Crysis type incident from happening where the game is out before its even officially released.

Eisberg: MS wouldn't have to do anything to retail standard Win8 to shut Valve out, though a few WordPerfect/ Lotus/ Netscape style accidental outages might help speed the process. All they have to do is get everyone to use/ produce 360/ NextBox SKUs which work on win8, as they control that (360/NextBox) format 100% and it is a 100% closed platform. They would then be no more obliged to let Valve in then they are to let Sony or Apple or Valve have etail on the 360 at present.

Kefka said:

Read the piracy article on tweakguides.com for a ton of sources showing the harm piracy causes and how DRM can help sales. The article is very indepth.

Click to expand...

Perhaps the worst article I read in 2008, and three years ain't improved it a jot. His stats actually show increasing DRM increases piracy.

Illustration relevant to thread: the most pirated games for the past two years had Steamworks as their DRM.

Zygo said:

Eisberg: MS wouldn't have to do anything to retail standard Win8 to shut Valve out, though a few WordPerfect/ Lotus/ Netscape style accidental outages might help speed the process. All they have to do is get everyone to use/ produce 360/ NextBox SKUs which work on win8, as they control that (360/NextBox) format 100% and it is a 100% closed platform. They would then be no more obliged to let Valve in then they are to let Sony or Apple or Valve have etail on the 360 at present.



Perhaps the worst article I read in 2008, and three years ain't improved it a jot. His stats actually show increasing DRM increases piracy.

Illustration relevant to thread: the most pirated games for the past two years had Steamworks as their DRM.

Click to expand...

umm, there is no correlation of increasing DRM increases piracy, internet has more to do with that then anything else. he also shows that even games that are DRM free get pirated to hell and back. World of Goo and a few other games he uses in his illustration had a 90% piracy rate, meaning for every 10 people that were on their servers or on the leader boards 9 of them have pirated the game. Stardock with one of their games, had 120,000 people signing in to play the game online on day 1, but they only sold 18,000 copies, and because of this it shut down servers because of to many people and people were giving them horrible reviews because of it, stating they should have planned to have that many people online. The biggest Linux gaming company used to not use DRM, cause Linux people are known to be for the whole "free software" movement and promises to buy anything that did not have DRM, yet the CEO in a message to everyone said that he didn't want to do it but they added DRM, but he said that for every 1 copy sold, there were 3-4 other people pirating the software and it got to the point they either use DRM or go out of business, so they added DRM to their games and they are still in business, making more money then they did before.

DRM adding more pirates have always been BS, it has always just been the justification that people would use, but the truth is, it was only a justification and they would do it no matter what.

As Steamworks being the most Pirated. Well it looks like Steamworks is used for 40%+ of new games, and Steamworks almost 3 years old. That leaves 60% or less being used up every other type of DRM out there. SO yeah, of course it is the most pirated, because it also has the greatest portion of the game compared to every other DRM out there. Thanks for stating the obvious though. /rolleyes

If you make a good game that people want to play you are going to sell a lot of copies.
End of story.
All the percentages and numbers and graphs and all the mathematical wizardry can help to support whatever position you want them to and you can interpret them any way you want as long as you don't offer all the variables. Trying to explain what all that means without looking at all the necessary data only serves to make you look like a fool.

People who defend Steam with weak arguments only serve to secure the position of those who don't want to use it.

If you want people to use Steam, for reasons beyond me, then you should probably have good reasons that they can appreciate.

You don't do that by arguing from your own subjective position. You have to take into account the needs of the person you're trying to convince. Why should THEY use Steam. That's really the only way.

I can only assume the motivation is to get others to use Steam, based on this insistence of convincing people they're wrong.

I mean, I have nothing against the fact that Steam is the preferred platform for other people. Well, I think it's unfortunate - but I would never tell them not to - or why they're wrong. That's because I assume they have needs that are being met - whether imagined or real. I don't think I understand the desire to change minds about it.

It would just be nice if Steam-fans could trust those of us who won't use Steam by choice to recognise our own needs - and that we've actually got some real tangible reasons not to use it.

Listen to the critique and UNDERSTAND where we're coming from.

holeraw said:

If you make a good game that people want to play you are going to sell a lot of copies.
End of story.
All the percentages and numbers and graphs and all the mathematical wizardry can help to support whatever position you want them to and you can interpret them any way you want as long as you don't offer all the variables. Trying to explain what all that means without looking at all the data only serves to make you look like a fool.

Click to expand...

Having no DRM can also cause a company to go out of business as well, despite it being a good game. Linux Game Publishing avoided using any type of DRM for 6 years, and it got to the point where they had to use it just so they could stay in business and continue to bring out more games for Linux. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=lgp_copy_protection&num=3

Just having a good game is not a guarantee one can stay in business without DRM. Sure they probably will sell lots of copies, but will it be enough to pay off the development/distribution costs, to make their next game or stay in business?

Also, lets see if The Witcher 2, which is DRM free, sells as many PC units as The Witcher 1 which had Tages DRM. The Witcher 1 sold 1.5 million in the first year, so far The Witcher 2 is ~400,000

For crying out loud Eisberg, you are not telling me anything you haven't already told me. You are just presenting a single fact and a bunch of numbers without looking at anything other than what you assume supports your point.

You've made a ton of posts in this thread and there seems to be one valid reply to each one of them: you-don't-understand. Please read and understand what people are telling you before you start quoting numbers at them because such conversations become exhausting really fast.

That's ok, it is hard face the facts when they don't support your position, pretty typical of people with your position.

Eisberg said:

That's ok, it is hard face the facts when they don't support your position, pretty typical of people with your position.

Click to expand...

Oh yeah, you've certainly shown us "facts" in this thread.

All you've demonstrated is that you really like Steam, and completely failed to demonstrate why others should like it as much as you.

DArtagnan said:

Oh yeah, you've certainly shown us "facts" in this thread.

Click to expand...

You certainty haven't. Mine is backed up by people actually working in the industry, you had nothing, just your own opinions about DRM and the affect it has on piracy.

DArtagnan said:

People who defend Steam with weak arguments only serve to secure the position of those who don't want to use it.

If you want people to use Steam, for reasons beyond me, then you should probably have good reasons that they can appreciate.

You don't do that by arguing from your own subjective position. You have to take into account the needs of the person you're trying to convince. Why should THEY use Steam. That's really the only way.

Click to expand...

Yeah. Every time I make a comment that Steam isn't my bag and I wish everything was on Gamersgate or whatever else people come at me with all the reasons they love Steam. That's fine and all, but really what is that supposed to accomplish? I don't care about chatting and achievements, I don't care about Steamcloud. I actively DESPISE auto-patching. You're not convincing me.

It's simply that some people enjoy that facebook style game interface and think everyone should. I get the same reaction when I mention I don't have a facebook too.

Eisberg said:

You certainty haven't. Mine is backed up by people actually working in the industry, you had nothing, just your own opinions about DRM and the affect it has on piracy.

Click to expand...

Of course I haven't come up with facts, because I'm not a liar. The only "facts" I've come up with are those relating to my personal opinion - because it's reasonably static and it can be considered a fact that I have it.

I haven't said anything about DRM and how it affects piracy. That's because I don't know - and I also know that no one really knows - because the amount of factors involved are impossible to fully take into account and come up with wholesome facts. It's guesswork that you can twist every which way.

What I have given you, are my personal reasons for not using Steam - all of which are 100% true and valid for ME.

DArtagnan said:

Of course I haven't come up with facts, because I'm not a liar. The only "facts" I've come up with are those relating to my personal opinion - because it's reasonably static and it can be considered a fact that I have it.

I haven't said anything about DRM and how it affects piracy. That's because I don't know - and I also know that no one really knows - because the amount of factors involved are impossible to fully take into account and come up with wholesome facts. It's guesswork that you can twist every which way.

What I have given you, are my personal reasons for not using Steam - all of which are 100% true and valid for ME.

Click to expand...

My bad, honestly I didn't look at who I was responding to, for some reason I thought I was responding to Holeraw. My mistake.

Geez, Eisberg, give it a rest. They are entitled not to like Steam.

@DoctorNarrative, both sides do the same thing. Any post that seems pro-Steam will see anti-Steam posters telling those of us who like Steam how we are letting down our fellow gamers etc etc. And it has nothing to do with Facebook for heaven's sake - I don't use that either but I like Steam plenty.

Dhruin said:

Geez, Eisberg, give it a rest. They are entitled not to like Steam.

@DoctorNarrative, both sides do the same thing. Any post that seems pro-Steam will see anti-Steam posters telling those of us who like Steam how we are letting down our fellow gamers etc etc. And it has nothing to do with Facebook for heaven's sake - I don't use that either but I like Steam plenty.

Click to expand...

I already did, about 16 hours ago Since then it was the importance of DRM in general to protect games and their developers/publishers. But I'll give that a rest as well

♥ I love Steam. ♥

I believe it's one of the most important technologies developed for PC's because it allows small-scale developers to distribute their games without having to go through a publisher. If you like games to be more than the run-of-the-mill game you have seen before, you should support Steam. If you only wish for games that publishers believe will sell, you can continue buying DVD's, but then do not blame the game for tasting like mass-produced junkfood.

That said, Steam-games are usually cracked within a day of release.

With steam though, you do get achievements which are displayed on your public profile and you can share your data with friends. You get patches installed on-their-own without the need to download them manually, you can easily delete files without the need to reinstall (just validate the download and it fixes it).

You do not need a DVD in your drive, nothing that takes physical space in your room, you can delete a game temporary and redownload it later, you can get a game at once without the need to walk down into the store (and be told it's sold-out).

Steam-games are convenient in a way that PC-gaming never was. They add a convenience piracy at this moment can't offer.

Eisberg said:

My bad, honestly I didn't look at who I was responding to, for some reason I thought I was responding to Holeraw. My mistake.

Click to expand...

No worries.

JemyM said:

I believe it's one of the most important technologies developed for PC's because it allows small-scale developers to distribute their games without having to go through a publisher. If you like games to be more than the run-of-the-mill game you have seen before, you should support Steam. If you only wish for games that publishers believe will sell, you can continue buying DVD's, but then do not blame the game for tasting like mass-produced junkfood.

Click to expand...

Uhh… the PC being an open platform and digital distribution itself make that happen. Steam is not required to have an indie scene. It's not even needed at all if you look at something like Minecraft.

Not sure why Steam gets the praise for that from you.

Dhruin said:

And it has nothing to do with Facebook for heaven's sake - I don't use that either but I like Steam plenty.

Click to expand...

A lot of the features people seem to really like are social networking features. Achievements, chat, the community page, friends lists, etc..