Dragon Age 2 - Jeff Vogel Review

The RPG genre is dying routine is a quite blind vision of what's always been RPG. With Baldur's Gate the RPG genre died, before that the best RPG had terrific dungeons and great puzzles and tricks. BG1 is quite weak on those both points.

BG2 achieved killing RPG by lowering even more the exploration quality that had somehow BG1.
 
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Sorry but this is butthurt , i mean expressing bitterness because the sequel was not as good as your all time favourite prequel , DAO was very mediocre at best .

Both POV's should be accompanied by arguments, or this will go nowhere :)
 
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The RPG genre is dying routine is a quite blind vision of what's always been RPG. With Baldur's Gate the RPG genre died, before that the best RPG had terrific dungeons and great puzzles and tricks. BG1 is quite weak on those both points.

BG2 achieved killing RPG by lowering even more the exploration quality that had somehow BG1.

This. And that is why I can't stand the generalization 'RPGs are dying'. I often say that I don't play as many First-Person-Shooters as I used to because I like the old health-bar + armor-bar + no-cover + extensive single player campaign shooter (e.g. No one lives Forever) and not the dark'n'broody Call of Duty 5h campaign shooter that seems to be the norm nowadays. But I don't think that the genre is dying or dead. If anyone wants to see a truly dead genre then look at Action Space Sims (e.g. Wing Commander, Freespace). That genre is so dead that there isn't enough body left to raise a zombie.
 
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…I often say that I don't play as many First-Person-Shooters as I used to because I like the old health-bar + armor-bar + no-cover + extensive single player campaign shooter (e.g. No one lives Forever) and not the dark'n'broody Call of Duty 5h campaign shooter that seems to be the norm nowadays. But I don't think that the genre is dying or dead.
I haven't played No one lives Forever despite I'm almost sure I have it, a Mac version. Also I have some hope that Borderlands or Thief could grab me.

About shooters that aren't mainly multiplayer games (like Q3A, UT or Quake Wars) I have a very special point of view. To give an idea I consider great only Doom 1&2, Marathon series, and Po'ed. I could add as half great for me, Pathway into Darkness and Duke Nuken 3D.

And I would quote that for me Mass Effect 2 was a very refreshing shooter, not sure where I would position it as a shooter because it's more than a pure shooter.

I haven't played that many shooters but still tried a significant number of them. I consider them only average games, it's for example Star Wars, Unreal 1&2, Quake series, Doom 2, Alien vs Predator 1&2, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Some Tom Clancy, Some Medal of Honor, Star Trek: Elite Force II, Prey, Half-Life 2, COD4, Bioshock. I also don't consider the shooter part of Deus Ex and System Shock as good.

I consider 2 elements killed the shooters:
  • Purely 3D limitations.
  • The rush to smarter enemies.

Those both elements contributed to restrict a lot the gameplay diversity of shooters by dragging shooters to similar designs. Both contributed to limit design of enemies packs, limit numbers of enemies, limit part of hazard and wandering.

If anyone wants to see a truly dead genre then look at Action Space Sims (e.g. Wing Commander, Freespace). That genre is so dead that there isn't enough body left to raise a zombie.
In fact if you look at indies games there are new release but probably not of your wish. But it's not a game genre I'm looking for, even if WC3 was great despite I never finished it. At least I quoted few games on iPad/iPod, not sure about PC indies.
 
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The RPG genre is dying routine is a quite blind vision of what's always been RPG. With Baldur's Gate the RPG genre died, before that the best RPG had terrific dungeons and great puzzles and tricks. BG1 is quite weak on those both points.

BG2 achieved killing RPG by lowering even more the exploration quality that had somehow BG1.

Well, at least here, BG was hailed so much, because it was the very first RPG AFTER this genre HAD DIED already !

And … - at least here - this is why so many people speak so fondly of it : Because it was the very first RPG after an insane drought …

and not the dark'n'broody Call of Duty 5h campaign shooter that seems to be the norm nowadays.

This could be the sign of a degeneration of a certain genre.

Too few diversification, too many sequels = too many speciments of a single species.
 
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I disagree. Loghain embodies the role of pragmatist and nationalist. Remember, the Wardens have a very bad reputation in Ferelden, and part of what caused Loghain to turn on Cailan was Cailan's suggestion that Orlesian Wardens be allowed to participate in the blight campaign. Part of what makes Loghain a tragic figure is that he believes that what he's doing is absolutely right, even if it kills a lot of his own people. The primary motivation for him is the preservation of the autonomy and sovereignty of his country, because that's what he spent his youth campaigning for. Cailan, on the other hand believes in reconciliation, especially in the face of a threat that doesn't care about borders. He doesn't want Orlais to take over the country, but he's not as isolationist as others.

The pragmatism of Loghain's military strategy is shown as well. The archdemon, at the time of Ostagar, hadn't yet shown itself, which, according to canon, is the moment a Blight actually begins. Because darkspawn generally travel the Deep Roads, there's always the chance that the blight may actually begin in Orzammar. What use is an army if it's been harried for weeks by an advance force, only to be wiped out by the main body of the opposition? Better to consolidate your forces in a defensible position, and move once you have a better idea of the enemy's actual numbers.

How does it make him a pragmatic? He is involved in power struggles. People involved in power struggles usually think what they are doing is right as long as it serves their goal: consolidating/grabbing power.

Grey wardens held or not in low consideration would not lead a pragmatic to ignore their part in fighting a Blight.

How could he have consolidated his forces in a defensible position as he is ready to confront loyalist nobles' armies on the open? He denied the possibility of a Blight to the end as the Blight is not a rival in his pursue of power.
 
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This. And that is why I can't stand the generalization 'RPGs are dying'. I often say that I don't play as many First-Person-Shooters as I used to because I like the old health-bar + armor-bar + no-cover + extensive single player campaign shooter (e.g. No one lives Forever) and not the dark'n'broody Call of Duty 5h campaign shooter that seems to be the norm nowadays. But I don't think that the genre is dying or dead. If anyone wants to see a truly dead genre then look at Action Space Sims (e.g. Wing Commander, Freespace). That genre is so dead that there isn't enough body left to raise a zombie.

The shooter genre is certainly not dead. Shooters have still shooter in them (for most of them)
RP games, one has to look for the RP part...

It is not about evolution of a genre like shooter genre but the thorough draining of RP elements from the games that makes RPG a dying genre.

How is cover withdrawing from the shooter genre? Again, it is not a matter of tastes, since some equate tastes and the elements that characterize a genre.

No RPGs of the past was perfect, as they suffered from technology limitations. But while technology has improved, the RP elements have been diminished while other sides have become more and more dominating.
The genre is not on the incline, but on the decline.
 
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Well, at least here, BG was hailed so much, because it was the very first RPG AFTER this genre HAD DIED already !

And … - at least here - this is why so many people speak so fondly of it : Because it was the very first RPG after an insane drought …
Woo what a distortion of history reality, it's terrible how fanboys can lost the sense of reality.

Fallout 1 was released in 1997, quite before BG1. Also I don't like it but well it's noteworthy anyway, Daggerfall was released in 1996.

Anyway the point isn't if BG killed the RPG genre ok, but the point is if you listen some other fanboys of BG series, the RPG genre is dead because it's not the BG blueprint. But with their logic BG series wasn't RPG because it wasn't from far the blueprint of past RPG and quite dumbed down when compared to them, simple dungeon, few and simple puzzles, not much tricks to solve, rarely deep exploration, and more dumbed down approach.
 
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Well, I do remember German gaming magazine lamenting on and on and on "the RPG genre is DEAD !" - then.
 
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Dead, I don't disagree but it was dead one year not much more, and not fully. But then it's Fallout that resurrected mass market RPG, BG1 only followed.

Anyway that's not the point as I already explained in previous post. To temper a bit I would add I don't disagree it's been major RPG in WRPG history but not at all that it's "THE" RPG blueprint, that's totally out of reality from any point of view.
 
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There is no blue print for RPG. A genre is different from a blue print. Classical strawsman.

RPG is dying, a slow process as elements of characterization are slowly removed, faded away etc from games.

Looking at Skyrim trailer, with in mind that acrobatics was removed from the game, I wonder if jumping is available, contextualized or absent.
 
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Looking at Skyrim trailer, with in mind that acrobatics was removed from the game, I wonder if jumping is available, contextualized or absent.

No jumping/climbing in a game which is very focused on exploring wouldnt make any sense at all. I'm pretty sure there's Acrobatics amongst the 280 perks, probably even branching into several perks..
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an ending wherein you assume the throne, marry Anora, spare Loghain's life, and banish Alistair?

The point I'm trying to make is that the battle against the darkspawn and the Archdemon is a backdrop for a story about a young nation trying to form it's identity. It's the story of the newest Warden, but it's also a story about pragmatism vs. idealism; Loghain's way vs. Cailan's way. There are elements of pre-determination vs. self determination, and several other topics that could be argued for years. As far as the ending goes, it's only the "same" in that you always kill the archdemon. By that logic, you could say that the ending to Fallout is always the same because you always blow up the Mariposa military base. The ending to BG1 is always the same, because you always kill Sarevok. DAO gives you the opportunity to make the "Heroic Sacrifice" wherein you die at the end of the game, but still win.

I always thought that the weakest parts of DAO were in the character customization and inter-party interaction, and those are largely personal preferences. I like a S.P.E.C.I.A.L. type system, where skills and perks are derived from stats, and all stats have a purpose. Dragon Age was very min/max in terms of attributes (Really, what use has any warrior for the "magic" attribute? Why is it even there?) I also felt that DAO was somewhat juvenile and lowbrow in the way it handled dialog between your player and your companions. Save for Shale, who I think should have been in the main campaign instead of Zevran, I thought most of the dialog could have been distilled to, "Buck up!", "You're pretty.", "Being nice is stupid.", or "Let's bone!" Or at least that's the way it felt to me.

Overall, I think that DAO is on par with some of the best work Bioware has ever done, and deserves to be in the same conversation as Baldur's Gate and Fallout, in terms of "How to Make a Great RPG." It had a long enough development time to create and really flesh out the world. It introduced a novel way of looking at magic and mages, which developed an inherent instability and conflict, and, on the PC at least, it looked amazing, save for the ridiculous amount of blood spatter residue. There was as much, if not more, choice and consequence as there was in the classics that we all use as the metric by which to measure all new games.

Bioware has lost a lot of their luster in recent years, and they've made a lot of missteps, particularly I feel, with the changes that were made between Mass Effect 1 and 2, and DAO and DA2. The overall feeling I have is that they're changing their games into hyperkinetic, T&A obsessed splatterfests. I feel like the company philosophy is to get as many fair weather fans from as many gaming genres as possible, instead of sticking with one genre, and having die-hard zealots within it. I think they're especially going overboard with the DLC. But, for all its arrogance and ridiculousness, they showed that they're still capable of knocking socks off, and I think that's what they did with DAO.

I'm not saying that DAO is "teh PERFECT game 10/10!" But let's try to maintain a sense of perspective.

I was talking about DA2 with the plot and how its your champion story and regardless of your choices there is only one ending. I know DA:O had multiple endings and I loved the game for it.
 
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I was talking about DA2 with the plot and how its your champion story and regardless of your choices there is only one ending. I know DA:O had multiple endings and I loved the game for it.

Yeah, I totally misunderstood you. I believe there is a half-hearted apology back there somewhere.
;)
 
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How does it make him a pragmatic? He is involved in power struggles. People involved in power struggles usually think what they are doing is right as long as it serves their goal: consolidating/grabbing power.

Grey wardens held or not in low consideration would not lead a pragmatic to ignore their part in fighting a Blight.

How could he have consolidated his forces in a defensible position as he is ready to confront loyalist nobles' armies on the open? He denied the possibility of a Blight to the end as the Blight is not a rival in his pursue of power.

You know, you're right about the blight bit. I forgot that he emphatically denied it up until the bitter end. It changes my argument quite a bit. I guess I'll have to concede that it's not a story of pragmatist vs idealist, but I disagree that Loghain is simply trying to usurp the king. He truly believes that what he's doing is the right thing for the kingdom. I don't see him as the one-dimensional power grabber; he wants to see Ferelden remain independent, and tragically, he's willing to be a native tyrant, so that a foreign tyrant can't take over.
 
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