Anyone else here train in the gym

Moriendor · June 3, 2017

@Pladio: A reasonable diet is a really important part. You should try to eat as "clean" as possible (occasional chocolate binging is OK, of course

). Otherwise: High protein, low fat, medium carbs should be best for starters. When in doubt, do it like the pros and just eat lots of chicken/turkey + rice + broccoli :biggrin:

.

As for the actual workout, I'd start with a phase of about six weeks where you just do machine training for the most part. Yes, this will get kind of boring after three or four weeks but the "secret" is to just stick with it, get it over with and just do it.
Your body needs an adoption phase (the muscles, the bones, the tendons etc.) and you should take it easy for the first six weeks to prepare your body for heavier workouts.

After that initial phase, and if you can "only" go to the gym 3x per week, you should probably do a full body workout plan. I don't know if you find it easier to stick to a strict plan or whether you are more of a free spirit but don't try to force yourself to strictly adhere to a plan if that is not in your blood. It is likely you will get frustrated and bored.

The most important thing is consistency anyway. It does not really matter that much whether you do a full body plan, push/pull or upper body/lower body split etc. or how many reps per set and all that "garbage". What matters is that you actually go the gym regularly and push yourself.
Don't overthink it in terms of an optimal workout plan. You will develop a mind-muscle connection after a few months of regular workout and you will more or less automatically know what to do... where your strengths and weaknesses lie etc.

You will have workouts that suck, you will stagnate and encounter plateaus, all of that is totally normal and expected. The "secret " is to just keep going regardless. Maybe swap in a new or throw out a couple old exercises, set a new goal (e.g. a certain number of pull-ups or dips or a certain weight you want to benchpress) but keep at it. Consistency is the no. 1 most important thing.

It's a marathon, not a sprint. Always has been, always will be. It will take a long time for good results. That is perfectly normal. If you want to see results, you just have to keep at it. There is no secret formula for fast transformations as some business orientated fitness "gurus" want you to believe. It's hard work on a consistent basis that will make a real, lasting difference.

Pladio · June 3, 2017

Thank Moriendor.

Sounds like a good idea. Part of my issue is consistency

It would be good to have a gym buddy for some extra motivation, but in the end I should do it myself.

First goal is to be able to do 3x10 pull-ups. That's where I was in my "prime"

I think like most of you have said, I need to do dead-lifts and bench presses as main components as those train large parts of the body in one go.

Not sure about the broccoli part... It's too green

Moriendor · June 3, 2017

Pladio said:
I think like most of you have said, I need to do dead-lifts and bench presses as main components as those train large parts of the body in one go.

This part I would slightly disagree with in so far as there are no exercises that you "need to do".

E.g. if you can not do deadlifts or squats because of your back or knees (like many people including myself) then don't do them! There are many pros who do not do certain exercises that everyone says you have to do.

For example: 45 year old Ronny Rockel (the guy's real name

) just qualified for Mr. Olympia (212 class) and very recently won pro events in the UK, NYC and the Toronto pro show.
When asked why he's never doing any deadlifts he said "Are you nuts? I love my back way too much to be doing that shit".
He also doesn't do squats AFAIK but only leg press machine.
Or Markus Rühl (also a Mr. Olympia finalist)… he never did pull-ups and can not even do a single one! Not. one.

There are no exercises you have to do. If you feel uncomfortable with an exercise because of health issues don't do it. Choose an alternative (deadlift alternative = hyperextensions).
It would be a pity if someone would quit working out just because they get discouraged over not being able to do a "must do" exercise. Bullshit. If pros can do just fine w/o certain exercises then so can you

.

Not sure about the broccoli part… It's too green

OK, then buy some dye and make it your favorite color :biggrin:

.

Pladio · June 3, 2017

I luckily do not have health issues, so my understanding is that dead lifts are quite good as they train a large part of the body's muscles in one exercise.

TomRon · June 3, 2017

Pladio said:
I luckily do not have health issues, so my understanding is that dead lifts are quite good as they train a large part of the body's muscles in one exercise.

Yeah, I've never met someone who can't do deadlifts at all, as long as they actually have a complete body. Now really heavy deadlifts that's another thing, I wouldn't recommend that to people with spinal issues. But dead lifts with lighter loads, definitely. Squats are different though, I agree some people shouldn't use them in their strength routine. As mobility training with only body weight or light loads might work though, but it's a movement with much higher demands on stability and mobility than the Dead lift.

I'd say Moriendors advice regarding diet is sound, but regarding the training I honestly see no reason to get into any machines if you know how to use free weights properly. Since you mentioned 5x5 (Stronglift I assume?) I'm pretty sure you do. Then there's no reason not to go straight to the bells. What I agree on however is to start easy, by using lighter loads (this is true even if you use machines though, it's not like you can't go ti heavy on machines too. They'll break you just as good as the free weights do if you don't take the time to let your body get used to the strain).

If you're doing for example a 5x5 routine I would start at maybe 50-60% of what your 5RM is (5RM being the maximum weight you can do 5 reps with). Then try to increase the weights slightly every week. By the time you get to the weights that are actually heavy load your body will have adapted just fine. This is of course just as boring as machines, but at least you'll get to work those stabilizers too.

Another version is to start with higher reps, like 2x15 and weights you can handle those reps with. That'll prevent you from putting to much strain on your joints and tendons before they've toughened up. I would stay with that routine for roughly 4-6 weeks before going for lower reps and heavier weights.

Pladio · June 3, 2017

Hey tomas, thank you for the advice. I may start with more reps and low weights first. I do not remember the exact name, but the routine went something like this:
10-15 mins of cardio
5 exercises:
1. Deadlift/squat
2. Pull-ups-chin-ups
3. Shoulder exercise/bench press
4. Ab exercise/lower back exercise
5. Extra weight exercise

Each of the exercises with weights like deadlifts would be 5 reps of 5 relatively heavy weights.

Then next time would be similar, but replacing deadlifts and pull-ups for squats and bench presses or chin ups. I would personally add or remove some other things when bored.

In general I would do 3x10 exercises, but I never felt like those changed my physique much for some reason (potentially due to inconsistencies in me going to the gym).

I may restart the 5x5 I guess, but like you said starting with lower weights.

TomRon · June 3, 2017

Yeah, that's pretty much a modification of a classical stronglift routine, and in many ways better than the original. If you want my advice I would do something like this:

Day 1:
Back Squat
Bench Press
Pullup

Day 2:
Dead Lift
Seated Row
Standing Shoulder Press

Day 3:
Front Squat
Chinup
Bench Press

5x5 on all of them, increase load each week. Whenever you fail a rep (either strength fail or technique fail) you back up two weeks in the load, so write it down. The leg exercises you can probably increase by about 5kg/week in the beginning, the presses and back exercises probably 2,5 or 1,25kg.

Always do the leg exercise first, the order of the others is less important, in the beginning when you use light loads you can even Superset them if you wish (walking straight between the exercises to minimize downtime).

You'll get by fine with just 3 exercises per session, but if you want to you could always add things like extra arms or abs on different days. But one multihoint leg, one multijoint press and one multijoint back like the example above pretty much got you covered.

CelticFrost · June 4, 2017

NewDArt said:
I'm just wondering what the science behind massive amounts of calories would be.

Again, I'm far from an expert - but it's my understanding that muscle mass is primarily built from protein - not calories in themselves. Meaning, carbs and fat shouldn't contribute much at all - and excess protein has clearly been established as unnecessary.

So, what would be the advantage of eating 10000 calories? I mean, even if you're a big guy - that sounds like a ridiculous amount - unless ehtbasis

Not sure you can bring it down to just science as every person is different and I am not saying during this time there were not other factors being used.

An example of leg day at gym.

Leg presses, warm up set 3 plates a side.
5 sets of 12 working up to 1600lbs.

squats 4 to 5 sets of 325 to 415 sometimes going to 465

Standing calf raises 5 sets of 700lbs( the machine didn't go higher

Leg curls 5 sets max machine

straight leg dead lifts 5 sets up to 415lbs

sitting calf raiases 315 lbs for 5 set

All with no more than a minute to minute 30 break.

You can break down cals by total weight moved.

txa1265 · June 4, 2017

Love reading all of this. I … just run. I started running ~29 years ago and have run ever since. Sure there have been ups and downs and minor lulls … but zero injuries and no real issues.

About 5 years ago I upped my running pace and volume, so I am now running my daily routes faster than my fastest 5K was before that … and 5 years ago I went from ~15-20 miles per week to 50+. Now that the kids are both in college I have a few extra minutes in the morning and have been running ~12.5 miles on my average day, or about 80-85 in a normal week.

I do some bodyweight exercises to even out my strength and fitness through my upper body and core … but ultimately I just run. I have pretty incredible stamina and endurance … and it just makes every day better.

Oh - and I run outside all year 'round, including winters when it gets to -20F or so here (I have good winter gear and will limit my route once it gets below -10F).

Pladio · June 4, 2017

tomasp3n said:
Yeah, that's pretty much a modification of a classical stronglift routine, and in many ways better than the original. If you want my advice I would do something like this:

Day 1:
Back Squat
Bench Press
Pullup

Day 2:
Dead Lift
Seated Row
Standing Shoulder Press

Day 3:
Front Squat
Chinup
Bench Press

5x5 on all of them, increase load each week. Whenever you fail a rep (either strength fail or technique fail) you back up two weeks in the load, so write it down. The leg exercises you can probably increase by about 5kg/week in the beginning, the presses and back exercises probably 2,5 or 1,25kg.

Always do the leg exercise first, the order of the others is less important, in the beginning when you use light loads you can even Superset them if you wish (walking straight between the exercises to minimize downtime).

You'll get by fine with just 3 exercises per session, but if you want to you could always add things like extra arms or abs on different days. But one multihoint leg, one multijoint press and one multijoint back like the example above pretty much got you covered.

Thanks. I might give that a try then when I start next week.

Ripper · June 4, 2017

You need some extra calories because not only does the exercise increase your requirements, but building muscle is essentially a healing process, which also requires energy. If you don't meet your caloric needs when training, you won't build muscle efficiently, and can even start breaking down muscle as an emergency fuel source.

TomRon · June 4, 2017

CelticFrost said:
An example of leg day at gym.

Leg presses, warm up set 3 plates a side.
5 sets of 12 working up to 1600lbs.

squats 4 to 5 sets of 325 to 415 sometimes going to 465

Standing calf raises 5 sets of 700lbs( the machine didn't go higher

Leg curls 5 sets max machine

straight leg dead lifts 5 sets up to 415lbs

sitting calf raiases 315 lbs for 5 set

All with no more than a minute to minute 30 break.

You can break down cals by total weight moved.

That's...pretty impressive. My legs would snap clean off by some of those loads. And I agree a Bodybuilder at high enough level with loads of muscles to feed and who probably works out twice a day most days a week needs to have a large calorie intake to sustain that mass, no arguing there.

Caddy · June 4, 2017

Ripper said:
You need some extra calories because not only does the exercise increase your requirements, but building muscle is essentially a healing process, which also requires energy. If you don't meet your caloric needs when training, you won't build muscle efficiently, and can even start breaking down muscle as an emergency fuel source.

This is why the 2grams per kg of lean body mass rule is what everyone is talking about. As long as you intake the proper amount of protein to maintain muscle mass, you're fine. Even very lean athletes have tens of thousands of extra calories in their fat stores they can burn as beta-hydroxybutyrate (which is more efficient in a lot of cases) rather than glucose. Also, the proper intake of sodium/potassium/magnesium is important too, as your body doesn't have a way of storing and releasing it (it regulates by expanding and narrowing your blood vessells to retain what you already have). The low salt myth is also old science. I think someone mentioned going low fat earlier though, which is also old science, and no longer applies. While "fat" in general IS more calorically dense, it doesn't have even close the effect of carbohydrates and protein on insulin response. It's absolutely required for cell construction and growth, and has the biggest effect on satiety. In other words, the science for cutting fat while building mass are:

1) As said before by tomasp3n, intake enough protein to feed your lean body mass. If you're building muscle, it will take some time to find a good balance above the 2g/kg mark, but a little extra isn't going to have a big impact on fat weight gain if your following the other rules. Why #1? Being in search in rescue, we've learned the effects on starvation on the body. Sure you can go for weeks without eating and survive, but interesting fact: In as little as 48 hours, lean muscle mass will break down with no protein intake (while a couple meals missed is fine, this is why long term fasting isn't an ideal weight loss mechanism).
2) Intake enough sodium chloride (and other required electrolytes). The max 2.5g daily is bullshit old science, and mortality rates go DOWN as you increase you salt intake. The exception to this is people with certain heart conditions.
3) Stop your intake of refined sugars and flours. Your body was never designed to be constantly in-taking 20 bananas worth of glucose in a couple mouthfuls. The havoc it plays on your insulin response, inflammatory response, liver, pancreas, etc is awful. It's the equivalent to driving your car by slamming on the gas to 100, then slamming on the brakes to a stop, constantly until you reach your destination. The engine is far from working efficiently, and so is your body. This is a whole book by itself, I won't go into it. Buy foods at the grocery store should be about walking around the perimeter and ignoring everything in the middle. The fresh produce, grass fed meats and natural (high fat and unsweetened) dairy and farm products. If it has a box, it's probably bad.
4) Everything else should be fat. Non-factory made fat. Here's a guide:

You want mostly mono and sat. The purple omega 6 you still need but only in small amounts. It's pro-inflammatory. Eat more if you're hungry. Eat less if you need to lose weight. It should be be roughly half of your daily calorie intake but there's no hard set rule. Fat is essential for cell growth. If you're building muscle, you need fat. Luckily, if you're building muscle and losing weight, some of that fat for cell growth can come from your subcutaneous (or even visceral if you're overweight) fat stores.

I love protein shakes btw. I usually do whey powder (stevia sweetened) mixed with unsweetened coconut milk, ice cubes, and then my secret ingredient is the Dysani sugar-free water sweetener drops to make the shake taste much more interesting (also works great for making high fat unsweetened yogurt more palatable).

NewDArt · June 4, 2017

I still don't understand how 10K calories can work without gaining fat - no matter what the hell you lift

But, some mysteries aren't meant to be solved, I guess!

Caddy · June 4, 2017

NewDArt said:
I still don't understand how 10K calories can work without gaining fat - no matter what the hell you lift

But, some mysteries aren't meant to be solved, I guess!

I think if they're in-taking 10k calories, they've got a LOT of muscle mass, and they're always at the gym (aerobic and anaerobic) meeting those calorie requirements (when on an 8 hour search with a 20 pound pack, it can burn up to 2 pounds or 7k worth of calories depending how big one's body is). Probably why you see a lot of former muscle heads with massive visceral fat guts when they get out of their routine.

Ripper · June 4, 2017

Massive amounts of calories for simple muscle building programs makes no sense - you will get fatter. The people that need that kind of fuel intake are athletes, who actually do burn that fuel - rowers, for example, tend to burn through a terrifying amount of calories.

NewDArt · June 4, 2017

Yeah, I guess it all comes down to the fact that I'm so lazy that I can't imagine anyone living their lives with that kind of constant intense activity

Still, 10K calories. I mean, I love eating - but I would have serious trouble getting through 5K on my best days.

Moriendor · June 4, 2017

I also think it should be mentioned that many of the 10K calories guys usually take some performance-enhancing ummm... "herbs" that have additional metabolic effects

.

Couchpotato · June 4, 2017

Cant say I work out in a gym but I started eating less, and walking a few miles everyday. It has done wonders for my energy levels, and my waistline has shrunk finally.

Now if only I can find a good pair of shoes to help with my aching feet.

TomRon · June 4, 2017

Ripper said:
Massive amounts of calories for simple muscle building programs makes no sense - you will get fatter. The people that need that kind of fuel intake are athletes, who actually do burn that fuel - rowers, for example, tend to burn through a terrifying amount of calories.

This. It's fairly common that people come in to the gym and talk about different athletes and how much they eat. Well, they're elite athletes. They get paid to work out, roughly 4 hours per day 6 days a week. Combine that with a probably active lifestyle outside the training sessions and a decent amount of muscle to fuel and yeah. I can see someone reaching 10k. I believe I've read somewhere that a more common range for elite athletes is somewhere around 5-6k though, which is stilla freaking lot.

My usual response is that when you've reached the same fitness level as that Athlete and have the same training regime then sure, you can eat that much…

Anyone else here train in the gym

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