RPGs that are/were overestimated

KasperFauerby said:

I'll also cast my vote for Diablo2 as the most overrated "RPG" ever! I have nothing against hack&slash now and then (as long as I'm not expecting something else from the game) - and because of the hype I've tried to get into D2 several times.. I never get very far

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Diablo is not an rpg. Never was. Was never intended to be. It was and is an action game with rpg elements. I played it for a short time and was disappointed with it, but I never expected an "rpg" when I played it. You said you have nothing against hack & slash now and then as long as you're not expecting something else. What exactly were you expecting from it???

The big O, not because it's bad, but because quite a few rate it as the greatest ever, and it simply.. isn't.

Icefire said:

Diablo is not an rpg. Never was. Was never intended to be. It was and is an action game with rpg elements. I played it for a short time and was disappointed with it, but I never expected an "rpg" when I played it. You said you have nothing against hack & slash now and then as long as you're not expecting something else. What exactly were you expecting from it???

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You mention that you never expected an RPG when you played it, but not everyone knew that much going in.

Icefire said:

Diablo is not an rpg. Never was. Was never intended to be. It was and is an action game with rpg elements.

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You know... you're right. It's weird because I still have it in its original box, so I opened it up and not once is it referred to as an RPG. The box doesn't mention it, and it's not mentioned even once in the manual.

But... If you check out:

Moby Games - Diablo info and reviews

You will see that most people, including "professional" online and magazine reviewers call it and action-RPG (there are links to major reviews). I think this is the reason that most people think of it as being touted as an RPG... and we all know that it is still a measuring stick by which other "action" RPGs are measured. I think that due to that fact it's pretty fair to say that the game is one of the most overrated RPGs ever (even overrated simply by being called an RPG by so many varied sources)...

@Icefire: "You said you have nothing against hack & slash now and then as long as you're not expecting something else. What exactly were you expecting from it???"

No, you misunderstand me. I knew exactly what to expect from Diablo2 when I tried to play it. What I meant to say was that even though I have no inherent dislike for that particular genre I still found it to be a bad game. Thus, given the fact it generally got very good reviews, I find it to be one of the most overrated RPGs

As for whether or not it's a RPG, well - that's a matter of personal taste and opinion I guess. I think the label "action rpg" fits it quite nicely. Another discussion would be whether or not most so-called true RPGs aren't action RPGs as well? I mean - Diablo2 is all about killing monsters, getting better gear and progressing your character .... wrapped in a pretty weak story and tons of small and simple quests. Hmm, to me this also sounds like a pretty accurate description of all the Might and Magic games, Wizardry8 etc No wonder really, since that's about all we can get to work properly on a computer. I know many people will disagree, but then please: name just one CRPG where you could actually make a significant difference through your actions (please also describe the actual action and consequence you have in mind, and deciding which faction/guild to join/help does not count IMO).

Did anyone mention M... and O...? I didn't read the thread, but I think many others have taken care of...

narpet said:

I have to second the opinion about Dungeon Siege. And I know that many may disagree with me, but in the same vein as the above mentioned RPG... the Diablo series absolutely stinks. I just can't stand mindless click-fest action games that dare to put the word RPG in their advertisement or description, just because the player's character has stats and gets to pick up cool magical swords from dead rats.

Dungeon Siege = Diablo 2 = Diablo = BORING

Don't get too mad at me for that evaluation... it's just my honest opinion

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I played DS only a few days ago. My opinion is already quite nicely summed up by narpet.. Thanks, narpet.

For my own taste, the BG is also overestimated. But I must admit that I never played it through, and never played part II.

My view on it is that it is simply a fighting game with lots of side quests - which can only be solved through fightung.

Okay, that's probably too simple and a bit harsh, but I never saw *serious* riddles within the game.

So why is everyone so happy about such a fighting game ? I still don't get it.

A similar thing goes for Icewind Dale. Great athmosthere, great immersion - but only fighting again. Considering these two games, I'd predict Black Istle was only able to make fighting games.

Role play does not consist only in fighting, imho. Maybe the strong faction of dungeon crawlers has won again.

Hindukönig said:

If you think "Avatar" is a strange name, just play Ultima IV and look was "Avatar" means in Wikipedia. It's actually pretty clever.

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Yeah. Most people don't realize that. So much for education ...

narpet said:

You will see that most people, including "professional" online and magazine reviewers call it and action-RPG (there are links to major reviews).

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To me, "Action-RPGs" are a new sub-genre. It is so new that some people cannot accept it (like the motor industry couldn't except Tucker's cars, but or different reasons ...)

IMHO, Morrowind was the RPG that was the most overestimated. Not that it was a bad game -- it definitely wasn't -- but the way Bethseda described it, the way the media reviewed it, and the way its fans praised it just didn't wash with the game itself.

My biggest gripe with Morrowind is its lack of heroism. Playing an RPG without heroism is like baking without sugar. Sure, you can do it, but why would you want to? I like sugar in my cookies, and I like heroism in my RPGs.

My other problem was the game engine. It's sluggish. After having played Gothic and KOTOR, Morrowind was like taking a step backwards that way. I found myself hurrying to level up just to try to improve my character's ability to move.

Finally, it was buggy and incomplete. In other words, Bethseda sold it before they finished making it. Like a lot of other software companies, Bethseda's in the habit of doing that. There are legitimate reasons why small software companies aim for "acceptable" quality vs. "high quality," but I think Bethseda is (and was) in a position to raise its standards.

In all fairness, Morrowind was a huge game and a huge accomplishment. Still, it was overhyped and overestimated.

I feel I need to take Morrowind in defense. Morrowind is the best RPG, that I've played and by any standards it was a step forward.

The graphics was beautiful and ambient and that combined with the music created an atmosphere, that I haven't experienced in many other games. The architecture and surroundings were alien and innovating in that way, that it wasn't the ordinary fantasy world like Diablo 2 or Oblivion. They created something that changed my views on RPGs, so when playing RPGs my standards became much higher.

I haven't experienced one bug with my unpatched version of Morrowind except when playing with 50+ mods.

The dialogues were long and interesting making it a RPG and not an action RPG. Lore and the general setting with a long written history of Tamriel making it a complex and immersive game world like no other but being destroyed by Oblivion's lack of same.

And left is the main quest, which is a story worth of a novel. The ruins of the Dwemer and the shrines of the Daedric both with history to absorb. The religions, the different regions in landscape and culture, again the ambience, the huge scale, the view on RPGs not being dragons, knights and orcs but a more "realistic"/equal world with a story still grand.

Morrowind lacked a lot too though. But it isn't an overestimated game. Rather underestimated because Oblivion has gained a lot more succes and positive response.

My views on the most overestimated RPGs are Diablo 2, Neverwinter Nights, Oblivion and KotOR. With no further reasoning though.

Morrowind is beauty.

Regards Asbjørn

It seems we've only discussed computer RPGs here, but I just wanted to mention that almost any Final Fantasy RPG (or any other game of that ilk) is highly overrated in my opinion. Yet I always fall for the advertising and have to try out the latest one. I enjoy freeform RPGs, and I think that if Morrowind and Oblivion had managed to make me care about the other people in the world, then I would have considered those games to be some of the best ones. Final fantasy, though, puts you on a set of rails and makes you follow a specific course until the very end. It just about drives me crazy. I usually get bored about halfway through and never finish the game (or I end up forcing myself to finish since I paid good money for it). And it's the same with almost any japanese style console rpg.

As a side note, I've been playing NWN2 lately -- it's a fun game, and it has one thing that I think any good rpg needs -- interactive companions. I think this comes from my ultima days, but I love the interaction and banter between companions in a party. The gothic series managed to be fun without companions, but I still think they're a great addition.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

Yeah. Most people don't realize that. So much for education ...

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Well, I guess "Lord British" has also a hidden meaning that only the super-intellectual fanbase of the Ultima series is fully aware of...?
When I made that remark I was very well aware what Avatar means - I just have a different opinion about the fact that you are constantly referred to as "the Avatar". For me that just features a bit too much pathos, as does the whole Ultima series. The whole stylisation as your avatar being, so to speak "the ultimate hero" is one of the things that in my opinion are a potential weakness to every story.

Well, you couldn't roleplay as you wanted in Ultima, you had to roleplay a Man/Woman from this world, that tries to become the ultimate Hero on Britannia... with compassion, honesty and Stuff... but this is ok for me, there are other Games were I can celebrate my dark Side .

On Topic: The big O - a RPG entirly without the R, and it's success is a bad sign for the things to come.

whether or not someone likes the ultima games doesn't matter. any game made years before is harder to get into anyhow. but saying the ultima games are overrated is like saying virtue is overrated...but i guess there are quite a few people in the world who feel that way.

The big O. I just can't get into it.

I love Diablo, Diablo2, Dungeon Siege, Morrowind, and NWN, actually I much prefer them over Fallout and Baldur's Gate 2. I would list those as 'most overrated', but in all fairness they may have been good for their time, it was a different RPG era. So I won't list those. But there was just nothing to like for me in the big O, so i will list that one instead...

The whole stylisation as your avatar being, so to speak "the ultimate hero" is one of the things that in my opinion are a potential weakness to every story.

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But in Ultima it's a pretty strong part of the story, because in Ultima IV, you actually BECOME that hero by acting really virtuous. After that part, it's more of a profession, a title. In the end, you can steal from the poor and attack the defenseless, if you really want to.

No one says that the titles mentioned here are not good by themselves (except a few occasions, like Morrowind). Dungeon Siege (1 for the record) was a good game in its own genre - interactive screensavers. It was just too much hyped and the likes as being an actual RPG.

As far as Morrowind bugs (unpatched version) go, Asbjoern, you must have not taken on Alchemistry. It has serious bugs like crashing to desktop and the like, and it really ruined the game for me, as it was one of the few things I found interesting in the game.

The thing is it's tough to differentiate between a game you simply don't like and one that's overrated. I like action rpg's like Diablo, DS 1 and 2, Sacred (my favorite), etc. Others do not like that style. I hate party based rpg's, while others love them. It is all a matter of opinion, I guess. But it is hard for me to think of any game that I did not like that got more press than Oblivion.

No, I didn't get into alchemy though I thought it was a great aspect of Morrowind. It added a gameplay variety to Morrowind, which I haven't experienced the likes of in other games. Or at least in such a full scale way, and not just empty words about a gameplay feature that really isn't that well implemented. There's a lot of this in the game industry.

A game is overrated if there is a general consensus, that the game is great but your opinion is the opposite. So of course it is a personal choice but it is dependant on the game being praised by some segment like the media, players etc.

Regards Asbjørn