The war on terror is over officially \o/

[dteowner]

Yet terrorist attacks with poison gas are very very rare, and when they happen, they're remarkably ineffective. Shootings and bombings, OTOH, happen every day.

Why do you reckon that is?

At the moment, guns are easier. No denying that. Take away option 1 and all you do is increase the popularity (and "efficiency") of option 2.

 

[dteowner]

Could you cite an actual example of a prominent lefty making that argument?

Just curious...

I think it's safe to say banning guns is a position promoted by the left? Gun bans would qualify for the 3-step process.

 

[Squeek]

Step #1: Severely limit rights to gun ownership.
Step #2: Severely reduce the amount of guns.
Step #3: Make a point of remembering every tragedy that ever involved guns.

Sounds good to me. We don't need the right to bear arms anymore and probably haven't for a long, long time. Come to think of it, we haven't really had much of a need for hunters for a while either.

 

[Rithrandil]

Just because we don't 'need' the right doesn't mean it should be taken away. We haven't needed religion, priests, or Christians for a few centuries (if ever), and they've done far more bad things then 'gun ownership' has.

I'll tell you what, ban religion & xenophobic groups such as the KKK, and I'll happily agree to repealing the 2nd amendment.

Additionally, I'm arguing for a right I don't even have at this point, so...

 

[Squeek]

Additionally, I'm arguing for a right I don't even have at this point, so...

You lost me there. May I ask why and how that right was taken away from you?

 

[Rithrandil]

You lost me there. May I ask why and how that right was taken away from you?

Checked myself in to a psych ward at a hospital a few times. Good deal of states have banned anyone w/ any history of mental illness (Regardless of what it was, how far in the past it was, etc) from owning a gun - especially after Virginia Tech. I'm not arguing this is a bad thing - I'm not sure if it would be a "good idea" for me to own a gun, although when I lived with my parents they had them in the home, but I'd be afraid of turning it upon myself in a moment of depression. Which is why I'd say my right to own a gun should be restricted or removed entirely, but healthy, law abiding citizens should be able to have a handgun if they so choose.

 

[Zaleukos]

At the moment, guns are easier. No denying that. Take away option 1 and all you do is increase the popularity (and "efficiency") of option 2.

AUM Shinrikyo had the scientific resources of a small country and still didnt manage to get much mileage out of nerve gas in their attack on the Tokyo subway.

It'd be easier to stage an attack with machetes or sticks, provided you have the manpower.

 

[Prime Junta]

I think it's safe to say banning guns is a position promoted by the left? Gun bans would qualify for the 3-step process.

Sure; I was just interested in seeing the kind of argument you're claiming the left makes for banning guns.

 

[Prime Junta]

At the moment, guns are easier. No denying that. Take away option 1 and all you do is increase the popularity (and "efficiency") of option 2.

But if Option 2 is inherently less efficient than Option 1 -- e.g. it requires more complicated logistics, better planning, specialized knowledge, whatever -- then wouldn't that be an improvement?

 

[Squeek]

I'm sorry to hear about your battle with depression, Rith. You seem like a fighter, and I'm betting you'll overcome all of that in good time.

 

[dteowner]

But if Option 2 is inherently less efficient than Option 1 -- e.g. it requires more complicated logistics, better planning, specialized knowledge, whatever -- then wouldn't that be an improvement?

Short term, somewhat; long term, no. Think of it like the civilization research tree. Gunpowder makes phalynx defense obsolete, but it also rolls out a whole new tree of weapons techs. Musketeers aren't all that much better than pre-gunpowder units, but eventually you get riflemen. Instead of spending focus building better guns and better bullets, we spend focus on nasty chemicals and compact delivery systems (or teh awsum 1337 flying rolling pin of doom, or what have you). The technology profilerates, and there you go. You're right back where you started, with nothing to show for your gun ban effort beyond a small handful of slightly quieter years while everyone adjusts.

I guess I'm saying option 2 is inherently less efficient only because we haven't needed to develop it so far. Are you saying that a gun is the end-all-be-all-forever-and-ever-amen of personal weaponry? Sure, it's the shizzit now, but so was the long bow a few centuries ago.

 

[Rithrandil]

I'm sorry to hear about your battle with depression, Rith. You seem like a fighter, and I'm betting you'll overcome all of that in good time.

Thanks. I'm not at all worried about it. It's bad and annoying but I just my life the best I can.

 

[Prime Junta]

I guess I'm saying option 2 is inherently less efficient only because we haven't needed to develop it so far. Are you saying that a gun is the end-all-be-all-forever-and-ever-amen of personal weaponry? Sure, it's the shizzit now, but so was the long bow a few centuries ago.

Perhaps not -- but it *is* a good deal more efficient than anything I could produce by myself, and certainly more efficient than anything the average flathead could come up with on his own. Perhaps we'll have plasma rifles or phasers eventually, but then those fall under the broader category of "guns" as well, no?

I think the evolution of warfare lately is a pretty useful precedent. Irregular forces have been kicking regular forces' ass in a quite a few places. They do it with the Kalashnikov, the RPG-7, the roadside bomb, and the cheap infantry guided missile. Without access to these technologies, life in Iraq, Afghanistan, or the Middle East would be a lot less interesting, and I very much doubt the locals would be able to come up with replacements that work nearly as well.

 

[V7]

Instead of spending focus building better guns and better bullets, we spend focus on nasty chemicals and compact delivery systems (or teh awsum 1337 flying rolling pin of doom, or what have you). The technology profilerates, and there you go. You're right back where you started, with nothing to show for your gun ban effort beyond a small handful of slightly quieter years while everyone adjusts.

And yet if that were true surely there's be evidence of it in countries where its difficult to get firearms? (and I'd have to say I find the idea that citizens of a society are involved in a arms race against each other somewhat disturbing)

 

[Rithrandil]

And yet if that were true surely there's be evidence of it in countries where its difficult to get firearms? (and I'd have to say I find the idea that citizens of a society are involved in a arms race against each other somewhat disturbing)

Well, D.C. had really high violent crime rates despite the old gun ban, where in similar areas (urban, income levels, racial makeup, etc) inside of Virginia (where guns are legal), directly across the river, the crime rate was much lower.

 

[magerette]

I could have almost written the last two pages of this thread standing on my head.

What is it with this forum and a) God and B) Gun Control???

Okay--Carry on.

(even though the incident that sparked this conversation has almost absolutely nothing to do with availability of firearms in the US and everything to do with hate, anti-semitism and white supremacy cults, something that unfortunately exists all over the place.)

 

[Rithrandil]

That's my point. I figure if people can bring their favorite tangent into this I will as well

 

[magerette]

Enjoy--just sayin.
(Sometimes I really wonder about the value of testosterone.Everything's so much easier for me now that I have no hormones.)

Crazy new avatar, there dude. Is it Conan O'Brian togged out as one of the Three Amigos?

 

[Rithrandil]

SMASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I wish I could have a larger pixel size because the full image is even funnier. It's from his Mexican telenovela, Noches de Pasión con Senor O'brien.

http://www.latina.com/entertainment/tv/video-tonight-show-brings-back-noches-de-pasi%C3%B3n-con-conando

 

[Corwin]

We're having a small issue here at the moment with racism and hate towards Indian students down in Sydney. However, the point I want to make is this. While there are bashings etc, guns do not seem to be involved because of our very strict gun laws. Without them, I think the violence and death toll could be much higher. Most Aussies are already horrified and disgusted by the whole affair.