Henry Louis Gates Jr.'s Arrest

[Prime Junta]

If she had cut an innocent bystander, yes, I would. A cop's duty is to protect civilians. As I said, the cop should have directed the bystanders away from the situation, precisely so that wouldn't happen.

Herself? No, I wouldn't. Not if the video showed the cop making an honest effort at talking the old lady down. What's more, the lady in question didn't say or do anything to indicate that she intended to hurt herself, or someone else.

If the cop had gotten cut? Well, yeah, a cop that lets herself get dangerously stabbed by an 84-year-old biddy with Alzheimer's doesn't deserve a vigil, IMO. If said biddy had actually rushed the cop with the knife, and had the biddy ended up bleeding on the ground as a result, it would be a completely different matter.

Also, you seem to forget that I'm from a country where the cops do not resort to force or arrest as the first thing they do. That situation would never have happened over here. Never. It might have gone south in some other way, but I'm 100%-epsilon certain that

(1) our cops would not have rushed the old biddy, unless the old biddy had actually started to attack a bystander first, and
(2) had the old biddy actually rushed one of our cops with a knife, the cop would have been competent enough to disarm her without suffering a serious injury, and almost certainly without injuring the old biddy either.

But hey, perhaps our cops just are that much better trained, smarter, and more professional. Lucky us.

 

[Squeek]

Strangely enough, the articles both say the lady was unresponsive to all communication. I guess that doesn't count as an effort if it's a cop doing it, eh?

There's a mystery! Old...confused...unresponsive....

Body slam that black bitch! Use a cop move on her! Kung Fu her ass!

 

[dteowner]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-27-police-fatalities_N.htm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/12/28/national/w210551S98.DTL
186 dead in the line of duty in 2007. 2008 was an improvement with only 140 dead in the line of duty.

Where's the outcry? Where's the sympathy? Hypocrites. Y'all should be ashamed. Seriously.

 

[Prime Junta]

That's what they're paid for. If they're not capable of handling that risk, nor of distinguishing between genuine threats and old biddies with Alzheimer's, they can always choose some other line of work. I don't hold vigils for soldiers either, Finns or others -- unless they're conscripts, of course.

As I've said, cops deserve our respect for the hard and dangerous work they do. But that doesn't mean they get a free pass to do anything they like. They have the monopoly over the legal use of force. That's a very heavy responsibility, and it is not unreasonable to expect that they act as if they're aware of it. They're not just another armed gang of thugs; they're the thin blue line that separates civilization from barbarism.

 

[dteowner]

Shit, and you say I'm cold. So basically, you won't shed a tear over 326 people dying to protect you in two years, but you'll scream bloody murder because a biddie with a 10" knife in her hand gets a cut on her head. If that's not a pinnacle of hypocrisy, I don't know what is. I'm stunned. I honestly don't know what to say to that.

 

[Prime Junta]

Shit, and you say I'm cold. So basically, you won't shed a tear over 326 people dying to protect you in two years, but you'll scream bloody murder because a biddie with a 10" knife in her hand gets a cut on her head. If that's not a pinnacle of hypocrisy, I don't know what is. I'm stunned. I honestly don't know what to say to that.

There's a clear distinction here.

Police are paid to do a risky job. They know -- or should know -- what the risks are, when they get into that career. They're supposed to put their lives on the line to protect civilians. Most of them do, I have no doubt. This one didn't. She injured a civilian, in a situation where there was no direct threat to her life or limb, nor anyone else's. She violated the very reason for her professional existence. That's not worthy of respect; it's despicable.

I could well raise a toast to the courage of people who choose careers in high-risk jobs that are socially valuable, but no, I won't weep over them when what's predicted to happen happens, any more than I weep over people who choose a career in the military, the fire brigade, astronautics, or any other high-risk profession. And I do weep (well, metaphorically anyway) for people who suffer when said people renege on their duty. If that's hypocrisy, then sure, I'm a hypocrite.

But from my POV, your defense of cowardly and despicable behavior by a cop just because she's a cop, in name of respect for cops, is hypocritical. They are supposed to serve and to protect -- *us*, not themselves. And "us" very much includes errant old biddies with Alzheimer's.

Edit: BTW, your change of subject has been duly noted (again). I'm still waiting for you to address that stuff in the health care thread, from before you derailed it into a discussion of utopian as opposed to incremental social engineering. Is there a pattern here?

 

[dteowner]

Jeezuz, it's not like this biddie got tazer'd, gang tackled, beaten with nightsticks, and shot in the leg just to be sure. She got a deadly weapon removed from her hand and got knocked to the ground. If I go walking toward a cop with a 10" knife in my hand (which she did), I could only hope to be treated that well, and I certainly couldn't cry if it didn't go that way for me. So "us" is fine with that level of protection, thank you very much. I try to have some empathy for folks doing a dangerous job for my benefit so that I don't have to. I suppose I could drop a 40,000 pound coil on my head if I was particularly stupid, but my job just doesn't entail any significant danger, so who am I to make their job harder than it already is by playing armchair quarterback after the fact?

If y'all have the answers, sign up for a badge and show the us the light. Otherwise, get out of the way and don't be part of the problem.

 

[Prime Junta]

A steak knife is not a deadly weapon. I have a whole bunch of 'em, and they're sitting entirely quietly in a block of wood in my kitchen. It only becomes a deadly weapon if someone uses it as one. This old biddy didn't. She just held it. It's a pretty big stretch to claim that she was even physically capable of using it as such against anyone other than an infant or someone equally decrepit.

I would take your "empathy" argument a good deal more seriously if I had seen you -- just once -- show some for victims of abuse of authority, over the years I've known you. But somehow, you only seem to be able to muster it up for people who are armed, trained, and backed up by the full might of the government you paradoxically claim to despise so much. I find that strange, and probably just as incomprehensible as you find my views.

As to signing up for the badge, I'm too old, and have too poor eyesight, for that -- and, what's more, I *respect* our cops, because they do a fantastic job of keeping the peace, catching criminals, and *not* beating up little old ladies while they're at it. They have my respect, because they've earned it. Yours, not so much, and this particular one, not at all.

 

[vanedor]

Cops deserve respect for the job they accomplish. Hell, I'm usually the first one to defend them whenever something like this happens. But in this particular Ohio case, too many mistakes were done. The evidence are clear. The cop tried talking to an old confused non dangerous woman for a few second then felt like she had done enough and it was her duty to try disarming this obviously harmless and vulnerable person. Sure, she was holdind a knife.. but you have to use your brain sometimes. She was not threatening anyone. She could barely walk! And She was not looking suicidal. There was *no* reason to interfere so quickly.

 

[Squeek]

Jeezuz, it's not like this biddie got tazer'd, gang tackled, beaten with nightsticks, and shot in the leg just to be sure.

She should be grateful, right? That's your point, isn't it? Stop complaining, because it could have been worse.

If y'all have the answers, sign up for a badge and show the us the light. Otherwise, get out of the way and don't be part of the problem.

Which problem is that, dte? Not the one where old ladies who suffer from Alzheimer's are being manhandled by cops? The one where some folks refuse to line up in all-or-nothing support of cops, like you. That one, right?

I wonder how the person who taught that cop that move feels today? Is he proud? Like you, does he consider the woman lucky?

 

[dteowner]

A steak knife is not a deadly weapon. I have a whole bunch of 'em, and they're sitting entirely quietly in a block of wood in my kitchen. It only becomes a deadly weapon if someone uses it as one.

By this logic, I can stick a gun in your mouth but until I pull the trigger you couldn't even get me for threatening you. It's not deadly until I pull the trigger, right? Of course, it's a little late once that transition is made, but the hell with potential, eh.

I would take your "empathy" argument a good deal more seriously if I had seen you -- just once -- show some for victims of abuse of authority, over the years I've known you.

I have yet to see an abuse of authority case where the supposed victim was completely innocent. You show me an instance of a cop grabbing a random person off the street for no good reason and beating them bloody, or arresting them without any cause/provocation, and I'll call for action just as loudly as you. Until then, I'm siding with the good guys.

But somehow, you only seem to be able to muster it up for people who are armed, trained, and backed up by the full might of the government you paradoxically claim to despise so much. I find that strange, and probably just as incomprehensible as you find my views.

Even wacko libertarians (territory I haven't entered...yet) support the maintenance of public order. That's in the Constitution. There's really no dissonance between supporting the police and decrying a welfare state.

 

[dteowner]

I wonder how the person who taught that cop that move feels today? Is he proud? Like you, does he consider the woman lucky?

I won't speak for that person, but let's consider the facts.
Input- erratic person with a 10" knife
Output- no harm to bystanders, no harm to officers, scratch on the head of the erratic person.

I'll take that outcome every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Those outputs are in order, by the way, most important to least important.

 

[Prime Junta]

By this logic, I can stick a gun in your mouth but until I pull the trigger you couldn't even get me for threatening you. It's not deadly until I pull the trigger, right? Of course, it's a little late once that transition is made, but the hell with potential, eh.

Oh, please. This is so specious it's not even worth addressing; besides, I already said that the situation would have been different had she been holding a firearm.

I have yet to see an abuse of authority case where the supposed victim was completely innocent.

I believe you put your finger for it: I don't require complete innocence. I require proportionality: use of force or authority that's in proportion to the threat. Just because someone's acting out of line does not justify any and all use of force or authority against them. Similarly, I believe in proportionality of responsibility, and I hold cops to a very high standard in that respect. It's a shame you think so much less of them.

This, I believe, is a fundamental disagreement; a matter of principle and values rather than application of principles and values. As such, it's not something we're likely to sort out by discussion -- so I'm respectfully calling it quits on this one.

 

[dteowner]

I believe you put your finger for it: I don't require complete innocence. I require proportionality: use of force or authority that's in proportion to the threat. Just because someone's acting out of line does not justify any and all use of force or authority against them. Similarly, I believe in proportionality of responsibility, and I hold cops to a very high standard in that respect. It's a shame you think so much less of them.

Subjective sucks. Subjective invites second guessing. Drive to maximize objectivity. "One size fits all" ain't perfect, but it's far better than customizing every pair of socks with the doomed goal of making everyone even moderately happy.

This, I believe, is a fundamental disagreement; a matter of principle and values rather than application of principles and values. As such, it's not something we're likely to sort out by discussion -- so I'm respectfully calling it quits on this one.

I would have to agree. Nice to get the blood pumping on a Monday, though.

 

[Squeek]

I'll take that outcome every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

That says it all, I think. No need to explain it further, because I'm certain I already get it. You're welcome to your point of view, of course, even if it demonstrates no sympathy whatsoever.

We can all thank smart phones for providing clear examples like this one. Hopefully, as more and more videos and pictures become available, they will begin to serve as a wake-up call, especially to our country's conservatives who need to reconsider their attitute toward police.

Blind support of police, though a well-intended gesture, clearly hasn't been worth it. As we are all now seeing, not only has blind support been inappropriate, in point of fact it's been pathetic. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Extremists be damned, this is an issue where we can all agree that we need to demand change.

 

[Prime Junta]

By the way -- not to continue the discussion, just to inject what I think is an interesting statistic.

According to a BBC article, 37 UK police officers have been killed in the line of duty...

...over the past 20 years.

That's roughly two a year. The UK has a population of about 60 million, which is about 1/5 of the US one. IOW, the fatality rate for cops in the line of duty in the US, relative to population size (which IMO is more relevant than relative to the size of the police force, since after all it's the population that determines their duties) is about *ten times* that of the UK.

[ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4451852.stm ]

That's a pretty big gap, right there. Any ideas why policing is so much more dangerous in the US than the UK?

It'd also be interesting to find similar statistics for other countries, and see how they compare.

FWIW, in Finland it's exceedingly rare for a cop to get killed in the line of duty. If I recall correctly, the last time this happened was in 1997, when a Danish escaped criminal gunned down two cops in Helsinki.

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steen_Christensen ]

If our fatality rate was the same as in the US, we'd lose about 2-3 cops a year.

 

[dteowner]

That says it all, I think. No need to explain it further, because I'm certain I already get it. You're welcome to your point of view, of course, even if it demonstrates no sympathy whatsoever.

I haven't seen the first ounce of sympathy from you for 326 dead officers in the last two years, so you really have no right to paint me as the only heartless bastard in the room.

Extremists be damned, this is an issue where we can all agree that we need to demand change.

Well, clearly we "all" don't agree, unless of course I don't merit notice in your grand plan. But that's OK. Once y'all agree, we'll see how that pans out, and then you can sweetly ask me to fix the resulting mess for you later. Like Grandpa dte used to say: On the first PO you sell them what they want; On the second PO, you sell them what they need.

 

[dteowner]

That's a pretty big gap, right there. Any ideas why policing is so much more dangerous in the US than the UK?

Well, let's see here. We've got a tremendous lack of personal responsibility engendered by "feel good" psychobabble in the education system. We've got tremendous lack of respect for authority figures, as painfully illustrated by this thread parts A and B. We've got an "enlightened" prison system that rehabilitates practically nobody and deters nothing. We've got a judicial system that's allowed legal technicalities to turn "innocent until proven guilty" into farce.

Shall I continue?

 

[Squeek]

I haven't seen the first ounce of sympathy from you for 326 dead officers in the last two years, so you really have no right to paint me as the only heartless bastard in the room.

So you're sticking with the idea that the officer involved was fighting for her life, eh? I'm certainly no expert, but I've had knives pulled on me twice (and fought once). Frankly, your characterization of this as "life threatening" is just too ridiculous to be taken seriously.

Sorry, but you need to get real.

 

[Rithrandil]

Here's a crazy thought: She might have made an effort to find out. You know, she might have tried to communicate with her before resorting to violence? Might have invested a minute or two?

Your standard for police behavior seems befitting for police dogs more than people, dte. Yours too, Rith. But shouldn't we expect more of human beings? What's wrong with them using their intelligence in order to try to reach better outcomes?

"Lassie's trying to tell us something! What is it, girl?" If only cops were as smart as Lassie, I guess. Oh, brother.

Who has the higher opinion of cops in this thread, I wonder? Those of you who keep explaining how cops can't possibly understand what's really happening or those of us who think we can expect them to be able to reach obvious conclusions?

I don't know, I'm not the one who accuses every cop who does anything to a black suspect of being a racist.