Skyrim - Previews [Updated]

[DArtagnan]

My gut-feeling tells me that Beth just wanted to get rid of numbers.

I think that's why they go out of their way to present everything visually - and I guess that's one of the things these previewers are excited by.

Nothing wrong with neat interfaces - but if the system won't accomodate intelligent development decisions, I honestly couldn't care less about power being represented by star constellations.

Traditionally, at least since Morrowind, Beth are VERY b/w when it comes to designs. They don't care about the finer details - so they just make a decision and let everything in the game adapt to it. Like they did with level-scaling in Oblivion - or the "one attack" in Morrowind.

I think Howard and co. got all excited about the prospect of not having confusing and unaesthetic numbers cluttering the screen - so I suspect the reason we're not seeing attributes is just that. It would be a series of annoying numbers getting in the way of the visual aesthetic.

Seems to me that a huge part of their promotion campaign is about something as trivial as the aesthetic representation of your character. Something which in most cRPGs is pretty incidental and irrelevant to the actual gameplay.

But it's neat - and I think Beth like neat A LOT.

It still might work brilliantly. But I read it as having too much importance in their minds.

 

[Roi Danton]

At least they are getting rid of athletics. That has to be one of the most useless attributes ever implemented in an RPG game. And I like the perks idea a lot.

 

[DArtagnan]

Going to have to agree with that one

 

[ikbenrichard]

Not even Stats anymore ? wow… well on the bright side now I don't have to buy it; I guess there are shooters with better RPG-Mechanics…

Yep, the way i think about it too.
lucky for us there are more fish in the pond.... sort off

 

[guenthar]

I don't know how it is going to go over this time but in the past when developers have gotten rid of numbers the games have ended up as failures in sales. I think Bethesda should have looked at what has happened to other games that have went the way they are going since then they may have not tried.

 

[Arkadia7]

Its hard to say if the new emphasis on a perk system will be a good replacement until the game is played first hand. I'm as traditional as some in that I like the attributes - strength, wisdom etc. however it could be integrated in the perks somehow. They talk about a sophisticated perk tree so I can think of something like perk - mystical knowledge - it gives you bonuses in certain spells for example.

 

[azarhal]

I think lots of people don't understand the perk system in Skyrim. It's small skill trees with passive abilities. No skill associated to the feature, no perks associated to it. Perks work great for the +%damage or attacks that Strength and Agility gave you, but they are useless for things like running/walking speed, jumping height and encumbrance, etc.

Which mean that Stamina is the new dump stats or that everybody have the same jumping height and running speed. Health and Magicka will have a "regen" stat, probably static so it regenerate always at the same speed (like Morrowind, Oblivion regen speed was affected by Wisdom and Intelligence).

Also, now it mean that races differences are in skill bonuses only. Unless they have passive "speed/attack rating/etc" bonus to races, but nowhere for you to see the statistical differences. Which I expect to be really what is happening here, because they confirmed a dragon shout that make you run faster. This mean "slow" spell probably exist too. So attributes aren't gone, they are simply invisible to the user.

It's all about the execution. Too much saliva in these previews to get anywhere near an objective analysis.

I'm pretty some of them had to change pants too.

 

[DoctorNarrative]

On the contrary. The idea is to encourage the player to be a jack of all trades.


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-04-18-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-preview?page=4

The same applies to the attribute system. If there are fewer attributes in a game, the players are more likely to end up with similar characters and create jacks of all trades. When there are more attributes, the chance of creating a unique character increases significantly.

Skills were always obtainable by everyone and spread out. What will hopefully make Skyrim characters more focused and unique is the perk system. There are supposed to be like 250 perks and you can only pick 40 or so of them by max level. This will require specializing.

 

[crpgnut]

I kinda wonder how many perks are going to be cinematic, rather than useful. I could care less about a finishing move, for instance. If the monster drops dead once it runs out of hit points (hmmm, wait no numbers), after it's little red bar disappears, that'll be good enough for me. I want perks that actually serve a purpose. That's what I'm waiting to see. Many of Fallouts perks really didn't do much, although things like lady killer, black widow, etc. would be quite welcome.

 

[DoctorNarrative]

I kinda wonder how many perks are going to be cinematic, rather than useful. I could care less about a finishing move, for instance. If the monster drops dead once it runs out of hit points (hmmm, wait no numbers), after it's little red bar disappears, that'll be good enough for me. I want perks that actually serve a purpose. That's what I'm waiting to see. Many of Fallouts perks really didn't do much, although things like lady killer, black widow, etc. would be quite welcome.

Some of the Fallout perks are more useful than others but I wouldn't say many of them are useless. Most of them offer a bonus to something, or allow for new tactics. Purely fun ones like Bloody Mess are more exceptions than the rule.

In any case I think they gave some perk examples before in previous previews, but I don't remember them. I think there was some general stuff, like 10% more sword damage or whatever, and then some other things like new combat moves or dialogue options.

 

[azarhal]

I kinda wonder how many perks are going to be cinematic, rather than useful. I could care less about a finishing move, for instance. If the monster drops dead once it runs out of hit points (hmmm, wait no numbers), after it's little red bar disappears, that'll be good enough for me. I want perks that actually serve a purpose. That's what I'm waiting to see. Many of Fallouts perks really didn't do much, although things like lady killer, black widow, etc. would be quite welcome.

Perks mentioned so far.

Weapons:
Adding bleeding to Axe.
Adding more damage to Sword.
Adding armor penetration to Mace.

Stealth:
Improving backstab multiplier for daggers.

Marksman:
Slowing down targeting (similar to Adrenaline Rush or Infiltrator power in Mass Effect 2).
I suspect there is also a zoom perk (like in Oblivion).

There's ~280 perks, average 15 per skill, but I suspect weapon skills have more, because you get weapon type specific perks.

 

[blackcanopus]

So attributes aren't gone, they are simply invisible to the user.

Even if your speculation was true, the ability to upgrade the attributes when the player levels-up (which pretty much is the defining point of a role-playing game) is gone.
Action games have those 'hidden attributes' too. In games like Street Fighter different characters have different values for speed, strength, etc. That doesn't mean those game have RPG elements, you must be able to upgrade them in order to be able to call it a game with RPG elements, let alone an RPG.

Since there are no classes in Skyrim, there are no hidden differences between two different characters with completely different play-throughs. Let's say we have three high level characters: an assassin like character, a heavy fighter and a mage (all human). Those characters may have different skill-sets, but they have the same values for speed, strength, endurance, personality, etc. They can carry the same amount of weight, move with the same speed and so on. This means there are no fundamental differences between characters and since the game gives you the ability and even encourages you to use and thus, upgrade all of the skills - like it or not - you will end up with a jack of all trades with a rather different set of perks.

What we see here is the exact opposite of what we saw in Dragon Age II. In DA2 they removed skills (Pick Locks, Traps, etc.) in favor of attributes; in Skyrim they are removing attributes in favor of skills. Perhaps because RPG developers think two rows in a spreadsheet are too complex to understand for an average gamer today and they have to remove one of them.

Off course unless if GameSpot's reporter was mistaken and there are attributes in the game, but except Health, Stamina and Magicka, you don't get to increase the rest of them manually when you level up. And they will be upgraded by other means (for example if a skill like 'Persuasion' is high enough to affect 'Personality').

 

[blackcanopus]

There are supposed to be like 250 perks and you can only pick 40 or so of them by max level

I get it that by 'max level' you mean the 'Level Cap'. Skyrim has none.

 

[vurt]

There's a cap for perks though, i think it's level 50.

 

[azarhal]

Even if your speculation was true, the ability to upgrade the attributes when the player levels-up (which pretty much is the defining point of a role-playing game) is gone.

I actually wasn't defending the "lack of attributes". Personally, I actually find it dumb that they don't display the information when the game have it.

And you can still raise Health, Magicka and Stamina. Give me Fable flashback.

I get it that by 'max level' you mean the 'Level Cap'. Skyrim has none.

There's a cap for perks though, i think it's level 50.

Indeed, you stop gaining perks at level 50.

 

[DoctorNarrative]

I get it that by 'max level' you mean the 'Level Cap'. Skyrim has none.

Ninja'd about the perk limit.

Characters in TES will be more defined then ever before, it's easy to see. I don't know how that can foster complaints of the opposite.

 

[ulixes]

On the contrary. The idea is to encourage the player to be a jack of all trades.

And how would that work with 280 perks of which you can choose only 50?

I'd rather have stats AND perks, but if we have a well-rounded number of significant perks, than I'll gladly take them over stats, because they DO make a character more individual and interesting.

 

[blackcanopus]

I actually wasn't defending the "lack of attributes". Personally, I actually find it dumb that they don't display the information when the game have it.

Yes I know, I said that hiding those attributes is not different from turning the game into an action game. Off course you can still tamper with Health, Magicka and Stamina, but I am certain that you are quite familiar with the concept of 'dumbing down'.
Attributes in Oblivion

And how would that work with 280 perks of which you can choose only 50?

The perks only affect skills. As I said before, fundamental abilities of a character (speed of movement, speed of combat, strength and the ability to carry more weight, luck, etc.) are NOT governed by perks.
If you use a skill enough, you are allowed to pick a perk which enhances that skill (silent run, for example). But that perk will affect your character ONLY when you use that skill. If you don't use that skill, you are as good as a character without that perk. You may have 50 perks, but as long as you don't use them; they are non-existent.
Say, you are a level 50 ranger, you are running in the wilderness and you are absolutely no different from a level 50 mage or rogue or warrior with completely different sets of perks.
Attributes (on the other hand) are universal and permanent. They are always there. Most of them have an obvious, ever-present effect on your character (like your speed or your ability to carry wight or find interesting items or random encounters or ...) and all of them affect several skills at once. So, while the perks define a skill, attributes define a character.

You may like that idea, but I don't like it.

 

[crpgnut]

Interesting quote from Todd Howard on Neoseeker:

Just hours ago we reported The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim wouldn't be seeing much PC love in the graphics department (at least not for now), and a new statement from game director Todd Howard seems to explain why.

"90 per cent of our audience is on the consoles," he says, speaking about the possibility of bringing modding to the Xbox 360 and PS3. "So 90 per cent of our audience can't even see this thing. So if we can solve that we'd like to.”

 

[DoctorNarrative]

Interesting quote from Todd Howard on Neoseeker:

Just hours ago we reported The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim wouldn't be seeing much PC love in the graphics department (at least not for now), and a new statement from game director Todd Howard seems to explain why.

"90 per cent of our audience is on the consoles," he says, speaking about the possibility of bringing modding to the Xbox 360 and PS3. "So 90 per cent of our audience can't even see this thing. So if we can solve that we'd like to.”

Kind of weird to twist his comment on mods to fit some kind of graphics whining. Weird and unprofessional too.