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Now, the Hamas thing was IMO not much more than talk, but this would just conceivable might indicate that something's on the move:

[ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7362937.stm ]

If Syria and Israel settle their differences, Syria won't need Hezbollah or Hamas anymore. That just could cause a shift on things on the Lebanese-Israeli-Hezbollah front, which just could give the movement towards peace just a little bit of momentum, which just could create a strategic moment for peace on the Hamas-Fatah-Israel front.

That's a lot of "just coulds," but IMO if this bloody snarled mess is ever going to start to unwind, the Golan is where it'll begin. IOW, this is the first bit of news from the Middle East in ages that has got me feeling cautiously hopeful.

Not that there haven't been many such false dawns before.
 
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Now, the Hamas thing was IMO not much more than talk, but this would just conceivable might indicate that something's on the move:

[ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7362937.stm ]

If Syria and Israel settle their differences, Syria won't need Hezbollah or Hamas anymore. That just could cause a shift on things on the Lebanese-Israeli-Hezbollah front, which just could give the movement towards peace just a little bit of momentum, which just could create a strategic moment for peace on the Hamas-Fatah-Israel front.

That's a lot of "just coulds," but IMO if this bloody snarled mess is ever going to start to unwind, the Golan is where it'll begin. IOW, this is the first bit of news from the Middle East in ages that has got me feeling cautiously hopeful.

Not that there haven't been many such false dawns before.

I think if Syria agrees with Israel, that doesn't mean it won't need Hizbullah anymore. As long as Hizbullah stands, Syria maintain its safety..
If it happens then nothing IMO will change on the Lebanese front, Hizbullah is Iran's not Syria's, Syria merely pass them weapons from Iran...So as long as Iran is not satisfied, Hizbullah will prevail and will grow stronger year by year,
 
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I think if Syria agrees with Israel, that doesn't mean it won't need Hizbullah anymore. As long as Hizbullah stands, Syria maintain its safety..
If it happens then nothing IMO will change on the Lebanese front, Hizbullah is Iran's not Syria's, Syria merely pass them weapons from Iran...So as long as Iran is not satisfied, Hizbullah will prevail and will grow stronger year by year,

I disagree with you on this count. First off, Hezbollah's remaining casus belli with Israel is the Cheba'a farms. In any peace deal, Israel will cede these to Syria. That means that if Syria still feels they're Lebanese, it is free to cede them to Lebanon.

Second, Hezbollah and Syria are purely a marriage of convenience. They have nothing in common ideologically; the only thing they share is a common enemy. Syria doesn't have too many chips to bargain with, and of these, the (admittedly limited) influence it has over Hezbollah is the strongest one. Again, in any deal between Israel and Syria, Israel will insist on assurances that Syrian support to Hezbollah will stop.

This will weaken Hezbollah's position -- without Syrian assistance (or acceptance at least), it'll get a lot harder to get the Iranian arms through: it's a long way from Tehran to Bint Jbeil. This changes Hezbollah's strategic position in one important way: it'll have a great deal more trouble restocking in case there's another 2006-style war.

A lot depends on how Hezbollah will react to the change -- if indeed it happens. There is the internal tension between the Islamic Resistance and the political and social wings of the movement. This could create an opening that would shift Hezbollah more towards the stance of a political party and less a private army. In this way, it could even strengthen its position inside Lebanon, even as its regional strategic position weakens.
 
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I disagree with you on this count. First off, Hezbollah's remaining casus belli with Israel is the Cheba'a farms. In any peace deal, Israel will cede these to Syria. That means that if Syria still feels they're Lebanese, it is free to cede them to Lebanon.

Second, Hezbollah and Syria are purely a marriage of convenience. They have nothing in common ideologically; the only thing they share is a common enemy. Syria doesn't have too many chips to bargain with, and of these, the (admittedly limited) influence it has over Hezbollah is the strongest one. Again, in any deal between Israel and Syria, Israel will insist on assurances that Syrian support to Hezbollah will stop.

This will weaken Hezbollah's position -- without Syrian assistance (or acceptance at least), it'll get a lot harder to get the Iranian arms through: it's a long way from Tehran to Bint Jbeil. This changes Hezbollah's strategic position in one important way: it'll have a great deal more trouble restocking in case there's another 2006-style war.

A lot depends on how Hezbollah will react to the change -- if indeed it happens. There is the internal tension between the Islamic Resistance and the political and social wings of the movement. This could create an opening that would shift Hezbollah more towards the stance of a political party and less a private army. In this way, it could even strengthen its position inside Lebanon, even as its regional strategic position weakens.

If Israel retreats from Golan and Cheba, Syria will need something to ensure the continuity of this retreat, so it will have to keep Hiozbullah a bone in Israel's throat, however it will have to do it in secret, which means it must deny all links to Hizbullah and Hasan Nasrullah will have to stop talking about Syria as an ally..
but I think the arms from iran will still reach Hizbullah through Syria,if Israel and Syria agrees that does not mean they're gonna be friends and trust each other...
Besides I am certain that Hizbullah are not gathering all these forces just to free a few kilometres in the form of Cheba farms. They have other goals, the most clear being the Lebanese and Palestinian captives in Israel. Especially Samir al Qintar whom Israel are not willing to free unless Hizbullah hands them Ron Arad.
Most importantly it's Iran's decesion that counts the most for the future of Hizbullah. What Iran says, Hizbullah does at least regionally.
 
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Always difficult trying to work out whats going on inside a regime like Syria's. It might be worth asking though whether after the Hariri assassination and the international fall out from the last Hizbullah/Israel war some inside Syria might view their Lebanese entanglements as more of a threat than advantage. Syria migth be happy if it could get the Golan heights back at the same time as opening a little distance with Hizbullah.
 
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If Israel retreats from Golan and Cheba, Syria will need something to ensure the continuity of this retreat, so it will have to keep Hiozbullah a bone in Israel's throat, however it will have to do it in secret, which means it must deny all links to Hizbullah and Hasan Nasrullah will have to stop talking about Syria as an ally..
but I think the arms from iran will still reach Hizbullah through Syria,if Israel and Syria agrees that does not mean they're gonna be friends and trust each other...

This will already weaken Hezbollah's strategic position. The arms shipments don't have to stop; they just have to slow down. Israel is extremely good at intelligence, and any peace deal will include some provisions for monitoring traffic between Syria and South Lebanon. IOW, it will be very difficult to continue arms shipments at the scale they're currently happening.

You can certainly get ammunition, RPG's, light rockets, light anti-aircraft missiles, perhaps even light anti-tank missiles and such across but not medium-range ballistic missiles, anti-shipping missiles, or other heavy iron. Israel is very worried about the Chinese anti-shipping missiles Hezbollah is said to carry, as well as its capacity to reach Tel Aviv with the medium-range ballistics. Those will be off the table.

In other words, Hezbollah's defensive capabilities will be virtually unaffected -- it will still be able to stop any IDF incursion into Southern Lebanon in its tracks. However, it will find its strategic threat much reduced: the rocket barrage on Israel will be necessarily more limited in scope and will weaken over time as the "best before" dates on those rockets expire. Its ability to hit Israeli shipping will also be reduced.

That is a significant shift in the power balance.

Besides I am certain that Hizbullah are not gathering all these forces just to free a few kilometres in the form of Cheba farms. They have other goals, the most clear being the Lebanese and Palestinian captives in Israel. Especially Samir al Qintar whom Israel are not willing to free unless Hizbullah hands them Ron Arad.

Quite, and both sides are just as deadlocked as Israel and Hamas -- neither side is budging. It's just conceivable that the shift in strategic balance might prompt them to move on this as well.

Most importantly it's Iran's decesion that counts the most for the future of Hizbullah. What Iran says, Hizbullah does at least regionally.

That's true, to an extent -- Hezbollah won't go charging over the border even if Iran tells it to. Like any group, they can only act within the capabilities they have, and an Israeli-Syrian peace deal will have a significant impact on those capabilities.
 
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Always difficult trying to work out whats going on inside a regime like Syria's. It might be worth asking though whether after the Hariri assassination and the international fall out from the last Hizbullah/Israel war some inside Syria might view their Lebanese entanglements as more of a threat than advantage. Syria migth be happy if it could get the Golan heights back at the same time as opening a little distance with Hizbullah.

This could also give an opening to international diplomacy. The world could reward Syria a quite a lot for a peace deal. Such carrots might seem rather enticing. Hey, it worked for Libya, and their glorious leader is a certified loon. (That said, if I was dictator of an oil-rich country, the first things I'd do too would be to gather an all-girl bodyguard and design a Batmobile.)
 
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This will already weaken Hezbollah's strategic position. The arms shipments don't have to stop; they just have to slow down. Israel is extremely good at intelligence, and any peace deal will include some provisions for monitoring traffic between Syria and South Lebanon. IOW, it will be very difficult to continue arms shipments at the scale they're currently happening.

You can certainly get ammunition, RPG's, light rockets, light anti-aircraft missiles, perhaps even light anti-tank missiles and such across but not medium-range ballistic missiles, anti-shipping missiles, or other heavy iron. Israel is very worried about the Chinese anti-shipping missiles Hezbollah is said to carry, as well as its capacity to reach Tel Aviv with the medium-range ballistics. Those will be off the table.

In other words, Hezbollah's defensive capabilities will be virtually unaffected -- it will still be able to stop any IDF incursion into Southern Lebanon in its tracks. However, it will find its strategic threat much reduced: the rocket barrage on Israel will be necessarily more limited in scope and will weaken over time as the "best before" dates on those rockets expire. Its ability to hit Israeli shipping will also be reduced.

That is a significant shift in the power balance.

As you said Israel are extremely good at intelligence however are not able to stop weapons shipments, Israel do not need any deals to monitor traffic between Syria and Lebanon, it already does yet it can't do anything about it...
I agree that it will be much easier for Israel to monitor traffic if it's official
And I agree that things will change when and if Syria and Israel strikes a deal, like suddenly some forces in Lebanon will start to like Syria causing a shift in political alliances in Lebanon.
 
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Hey, if it helps bring some degree of peace to the region, I'm all for it!!
 
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As you said Israel are extremely good at intelligence however are not able to stop weapons shipments, Israel do not need any deals to monitor traffic between Syria and Lebanon, it already does yet it can't do anything about it...

Quite -- it can't stop them, but it can know if and how much is going through. With a peace deal, Syria would be responsible for stopping the shipments, and Israel would simply monitor that they're doing so. There would certainly exist enforcement mechanisms in case they weren't in compliance.

I agree that it will be much easier for Israel to monitor traffic if it's official
And I agree that things will change when and if Syria and Israel strikes a deal, like suddenly some forces in Lebanon will start to like Syria causing a shift in political alliances in Lebanon.

Yup. But it will be uncharted territory -- it's impossible to predict how things will go, and the optimistic outcome I've sketched here is, unfortunately, only one among many. As you know all too well, things rarely work out according to the best-case scenario in your part of the world.
 
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Arent there factions in Syria who would want to maintain ties with Hezbollah just in order to keep their leverage on Lebanese politics? While the pro-syrian faction in Lebanon is fairly diverse I got the impression that Hezbollah still is its strongest element by far.
 
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Arent there factions in Syria who would want to maintain ties with Hezbollah just in order to keep their leverage on Lebanese politics? While the pro-syrian faction in Lebanon is fairly diverse I got the impression that Hezbollah still is its strongest element by far.

Yes, and thats been Syrian policy for several decades, the question is whether the changes on the ground over the past couple of years are causing Syria to rethink strategy. The involvement in Lebanon made a lot more sense when Israel was occupying the south, now that Israel has withdrawn there are fewer benefits and more risks (not least of which is that there is less incentive for Israel to negoatiate over the Golan heights.
 
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What's more, coalitions in Lebanese politics are notoriously fluid. Because the parties aren't ideological as much as sectarian, the common ground they have at any given moment depends on the power relations between the sects more than any shared political, ideological, or even religious vision. Things could change very rapidly if something shifts in these relations, for example if Syria and Israel bury the hatchet. That's one of the problems with Lebanon -- there never was a genuine, shared vision of what the country is supposed to be.

As to Syria, it's very, very difficult to guess what's going on in there, because the regime keeps an extremely tight lid on information. That means that there's almost no way to tell which rumor is credible, and, naturally, the official information is whatever happens to be most convenient at the time. There are at least seven more or less autonomous secret police organizations with complex relations between each other and the Alawite clan currently running the show; there's no way to know exactly what each of these groupings want, nor which one is on the way up and which one is on the way down.

We can't even know for certain how stable the entire system is -- it could be rock-solid, or it could collapse tomorrow. Not even the average Syrian would know about that. The best information we have is from high-level Syrian defectors like Khaddam, the former VP, and all of them have their own agendas -- nor do even they necessarily have a solid picture of what's going on either. That means we should absolutely not take anything they say at face value either.
 
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I've got a question for our resident Middle East pundits about some information I've just run across--I found this presentation by Richard Engel, MSNBC's correspondent in Iraq(he's been there for five years covering the war) explaining the regional powerplays and the components of the conflict very clearly. It's one of the simplest breakdowns I've seen of why everything is going to hell in a handbasket, along with some conclusions about what will happen if & when the US starts pulling out troops.

I'm really glad to see this type of coverage emerging here because its been sadly lacking, but I'd like to know how accurate those who know more about the region than I find this, and whether it ought to be recommended as a primer for those who are confused here.

Here's the presentation(I'm sure it's flash-it's streaming video, anyway)

and here's the Extra Info section, which gives a succinct table listing the differences/commonalities of Shia and Suni.

Thoughts?
 
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Thoughts?

Well, I suppose that's about as good as you can do in a five-to-ten-minute presentation. It's bound to be a huge simplification, and as such, it's very dangerous to draw any conclusions from it beyond what he actually states.

There were only two things that actually jarred with me.

First, his characterization of Saudi Arabia as the "backbone of Sunni Islam." It isn't. It's the backbone of one particular branch of Sunni Islam, but I very much doubt that Sunni Muslims from, say, Turkey, Indonesia, or even Lebanon or Palestine would feel any particular loyalty to Saudi Arabia. Mecca and Medina happen to be there, and the hajj is immensely important, but that doesn't give the Saudi state, or Saudi scholars, any particularly privileged position for Sunnis. If anything, the backbone of Sunni Islam would be the Al-Azhar mosque and university in Egypt, I'd say, even if the holiest places of Islam -- Shi'a and Sunni alike -- happen to be situated in Saudi Arabia.

Second, his characterization of the Iran/Iraq relationship. The way he stated it, Iran could simply take over Iraq because Iraq is majority Shi'ite. That's not so. Iranian/Iraqi relations are way more complex (and difficult) than that, with Iraqi Shi'ites having various highly divergent positions about Iran. The current Iraqi government is based on an organization formerly called the Badr Brigades (now called the Iraqi Army), which was organized and trained in Iran. They have extremely close personal ties to Tehran. The current main antagonist to America, Moqtada al-Sadr, is an Iraqi phenomenon, opposed to Iranian dominance over Iraq, and opposed to the current government.

A bigger problem with this exposition, though, is that it characterizes Iraq as a purely regional problem -- Kurds wanting this, Syrians, Jordanians, and Saudis wanting that, Iranians wanting the other -- without any attention paid to what Iraqis of various religious, ethnic, and political backgrounds want.

Now, I'm not really well-versed in Iraqi politics, but I have a very strong suspicion that they're a lot like Lebanese politics. If that's the case, yes, you do have to know about the regional picture, but it's far more important to understand, say, Ayatollah Sistani's relationship to Moqtada al-Sadr's father, Mohammad Sadeq al-Sadr, or what Jalal Talabani was up to before they made him president. Or, at the very least, that such relationships, alliances, antagonisms, and histories exist and make the situation enormously more complicated than it is.

Finally, about his prognosis -- yeah, America is stuck there like a louse in tar, as the Finnish saying goes. Pulling out would certainly lead to an intensification of the conflict with regional players meddling like crazy, probably through proxy (except the Turks, who would certainly give the Kurds a righteous stomping fairly early in the game); we're talking the Lebanese civil war with the added excitement of it happening on top of some of the best oil reserves left on the planet, at a time when oil is climbing inexorably towards $200/bbl. But if the American game plan is to sit there and hope, I don't know how much better the outcome of that would be.

And finally finally, IMO his "extra info" doesn't really say much. The salient point about Shi'ism is that it's based on (a) martyrdom and (b) 1300 years of getting stomped on by Sunnis, which he already mentions in his main presentation.
 
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Thanks very much Prime J. I realize it's an over-simplification, but let's face it--without some basic education like this, the complexities of the discussion are way over the heads of most Americans, including me. (It took me twenty minutes of close reading to begin to pigeonhole the facts of your article with the "simple" breakdown of the personalities and factions in Lebanon, and then I needed aspirin and a lay-down.) I was concerned that in over-simplifying, accuracy would be glossed over, so thanks for your examples of such.

I was primarily thinking of this in terms of an introduction for people who know almost nothing about the area. It's hard to believe that after 5 years of our involvement, this is the first mainstream media presentation of its kind that I've seen. (And I would say the only reason its out there now is due to a) the election and b) the Bush/McSame/Obama appeasement/negotiation flap.)

To you the Shia/Sunni table may seem elementary, but the terms are used and heard over here without many people having even a remote clue what they signify--my own impression before my partial education on this board, was that it was a cleft in Islam similar to the Catholic and Protestant one in Christianity and why don't they just get over it (which I suppose to some extent it is, but talk about over-simplifying/misidentifying...) but of course, if you don't understand the history, you aren't going to get it.

This factoid you presented really surprised me:
The current Iraqi government is based on an organization formerly called the Badr Brigades (now called the Iraqi Army), which was organized and trained in Iran. They have extremely close personal ties to Tehran. The current main antagonist to America, Moqtada al-Sadr, is an Iraqi phenomenon, opposed to Iranian dominance over Iraq, and opposed to the current government.

So we're in effect supporting an Iran-oriented government with an Iran-trained army as our choice, and simultaneously saber-rattling at Iran like a drunken cicada in springtime? Somehow this doesn't seem productive...or even logical.
 
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Somehow this doesn't seem productive...or even logical.

Welcome to the exciting world of US foreign policy ;)

For a media presentation it was pretty good, I found myself constantly thinking 'yes but...' or 'yes and...' but I don't think it'd be easier to get a better picture than that without getting into the books and journals and it does at least introduce the complexity.

Re Saudi backbone - agreed its not in the sense that it sounds like in the presentation but the Saudis have spent a lot of money building mosques round the world and export a lot of imams. Its the Saudi royal family’s way to buy off the religious critics while they spend their spare money on palaces so it doesn't buy them loyalty exactly but its one of the big reasons for the international spread of conservative Wahhabism.

He also called Turkey a military state which is an interesting interpretation.
 
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Thanks for shedding more light on the Saudi position, V7. I was thinking might the fallacy of the "backbone" remark also be somewhat due to ethnicity?

So you don't see Turkey as a secular military state? More of a blend, or what?

Got to go now and look up Wahhabism. ;)
 
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So you don't see Turkey as a secular military state? More of a blend, or what?

I'd describe it as a democracy with military participation. The military views itself as the guardians of the constitution and more particularly the political legacy of Kemal Ataturk who founded the 'modern secular' republic of Turkey (in itself an interesting balancing act as Ataturk was keen to keep the army out of politics). So while the army has occasionally mounted coup d'etats (the last in 1980) or political interventions the country is ruled by a democratically elected government (currently made up of Islamists that the army mistrusts but hasn't kicked out) and the army doesn’t seek power for its own sake. All in all there's a vast gulf between Turkey and what I'd consider a 'military state' (Myanmar, Libya, Fiji or Pakistan would be a current examples). Its an interesting thought experiment to wonder what some of the western militaries would do if they were in a situation similar to Turkey.
 
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