Middle East news (really M.E.!)

[Prime Junta]

Thanks very much Prime J. I realize it's an over-simplification, but let's face it--without some basic education like this, the complexities of the discussion are way over the heads of most Americans, including me. (It took me twenty minutes of close reading to begin to pigeonhole the facts of your article with the "simple" breakdown of the personalities and factions in Lebanon, and then I needed aspirin and a lay-down.) I was concerned that in over-simplifying, accuracy would be glossed over, so thanks for your examples of such.

Well, it was, but that's inevitable. As I said, all in all it was about as good as you could do in something as condensed as that.

I was primarily thinking of this in terms of an introduction for people who know almost nothing about the area. It's hard to believe that after 5 years of our involvement, this is the first mainstream media presentation of its kind that I've seen. (And I would say the only reason its out there now is due to a) the election and b) the Bush/McSame/Obama appeasement/negotiation flap.)

Very likely, and I find it hard to believe that this is an accident.

To you the Shia/Sunni table may seem elementary, but the terms are used and heard over here without many people having even a remote clue what they signify--my own impression before my partial education on this board, was that it was a cleft in Islam similar to the Catholic and Protestant one in Christianity and why don't they just get over it (which I suppose to some extent it is, but talk about over-simplifying/misidentifying...) but of course, if you don't understand the history, you aren't going to get it.

The Shi'a/Sunni table has to be elementary; that's not the problem. The thing is that it didn't IMO really communicate why the two groups are still so much at odds. That was mentioned in the main presentation, though.

So we're in effect supporting an Iran-oriented government with an Iran-trained army as our choice, and simultaneously saber-rattling at Iran like a drunken cicada in springtime? Somehow this doesn't seem productive...or even logical.

More or less. That's also one reason the Iranians don't take you terribly seriously -- they know they've got you by the short-n-curlies in so many ways it's almost (but not quite) not even funny. The Middle East is like that, with all those overlapping identities and loyalties. If you're not very careful, you'll end up in bed with some rather strange people. (For example, I've always thought that if you absolutely have to support an oppressive government in the Middle East, a secularist dictator like Saddam or Bashar would seem a more logical choice than a theocratic king like Abdullah al Saud.)

 

[Prime Junta]

Just wanted to thank everyone here for all the info...

Any more information on Israel-Syria peace ?

Nothing new that I've come across. Still waiting (and hoping)...

 

[Prime Junta]

Thanks for shedding more light on the Saudi position, V7. I was thinking might the fallacy of the "backbone" remark also be somewhat due to ethnicity?

Not really; it's more that Sunni Islam doesn't really *have* a "backbone" the same way that, say, the cardinals and bishops of the Catholic Church are its backbone, or the ayatollahs of Shi'i Islam are its backbone. It's much more diverse and decentralized; any Muslim who reads up on it can gather a following as a religious leader. "Imam" in Sunni Islam simply means the individual who leads the prayer at the mosque; usually there's someone at the mosque who has this job, but if he's not there, anyone can step up and do it.

So you don't see Turkey as a secular military state? More of a blend, or what?

It's a secular democracy guaranteed by its military. Sorta. That is, if the democracy does anything that the military perceives to threaten the secular character of the state, it'll step in and do a little democratizin' of its own. The current governing party are moderate Islamists, and the army has been extremely suspicious of them; thus far they haven't stepped out of line, though.

Got to go now and look up Wahhabism.

Wahhabis actually call themselves salafis, so you should probably look up that too.

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism ]
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafism ]

 

[magerette]

A lot of very helpful information here; thanks. I had found the wiki on Wahhabism and it was most interesting--the depth and complexity of Islam itself is one of the mind-bogglers that we face in trying to understand it, that and the profound personal influence it has on individual people's lives. I don't think western Christianity has had that level of intensity for the average person since medieval times.

Prime J wrote:

Very likely, and I find it hard to believe that this is an accident.

Agreed. The sense that this will be an election focusing on foreign policy (and the need to deal in some way beyond militarily with the ME) is beginning to leak through, and that makes this stuff news. No doubt 4,000+ US military deaths and the untold number of American and Iraqi civilian deaths, not to mention the diminishment of the US in world opinion, are factors as well...

A bit late, if you ask me....

 

[Corwin]

When Christians have that level of intensity, they're called nutters, or something similar and totally ignored!!

 

[V7]

When Christians have that level of intensity, they're called nutters, or something similar and totally ignored!!

The violent ones maybe, but the evangelical movement is quite influential in a number of countries and even the old catholic church manages to inspire some.

 

[Prime Junta]

I was just at the funeral of a relative on Saturday. She was a charismatic Pentecostal. The funeral left me with something of a bad taste. The overall message I got from the lay preacher officiating was "We're going to see her in Heaven, but y'all are going to Hell! Neener neener!" He went into considerable detail about Judgment Day, the resurrection of the flesh, and so on.

That movement is very strong where said relative is from; I believe about half her village belongs to it.

 

[Corwin]

Welcome to my world!!

 

[Prime Junta]

Somehow, I don't think you'd go "you'll burn in Hell, neener neener" at grieving relatives who don't happen to be part of your movement. Would you?

 

[Corwin]

Well, no. I don't have a mean bone in my body and such behaviour is really inappropriate. Sometimes my 'colleagues' step over the line and that is definitely an example of that. I have little time for 'extremists' of any persuasion. Jesus preached moderation, not intolerance. Unfortunately people have twisted things taken out of context to present Christianity as an intolerant faith. It's not when it comes to people, though it is, like most others, when it comes to claiming that it is the right and only way!! Still, while I believe in encouraging people to become Christians, it is TOTALLY unacceptable to attempt to force people. If God gave everyone free will and the right to choose, who are WE to try to take that privilege away!!

 

[Prime Junta]

Thanks, that's more or less what I figured. The trouble with intolerance is that the intolerants tend to be the loudest, which means they quite often end up being the public face of their community, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or whatever. Even if they don't represent the silent majority.

My grand-aunt (the one being buried) was anything but intolerant (in fact, as my father put it, she's one of the very few people he knew about whom it's virtually impossible to find anything nasty to say). I'm fairly certain she wouldn't have liked what the preacher said, even if the preacher was a close friend of hers. She had asked my father to be one of her pallbearers, after all, and he has nothing whatsoever to do with her religious community.

This is her -- IMO it gives a pretty good idea of what kind of person she was.

 

[magerette]

No, she doesn't look like she'd ask you your beliefs before she would get you a drink of water on a hot day, or even care.(Is that a butter churn or an ice cream maker?) It's sad her religious community is so short-sighted and antagonistic to people of divergent beliefs.

I worked with a Pentecostal lady at one time and she was a nice but an extremely low-key person--in her version of that sect, there was no make-up, no dancing, no listening to secular music, no card-playing etc allowed(let alone smoking, drinking and other more major vices..er, SINS) and she was taking a daring step of rebellion which got her in trouble with the church when she put on some lipstick and had her hair done for a job interview. She was always kind and helpful, though.

Somewhere in this "we have a monopoly on the afterlife" concept there's a great existentialist play lurking. In my meandering exploration of myths and religions, I've often wondered--what if exactly what you believe will happen to you when you die is what determines what does happen?

I picture a huge, confused ethereal universe where devout Christians are playing the harp sitting on clouds or frying in sulpherous flames depending on their level of guilt, where ancient Greeks wander the shores of a dark underground river, Vikings are having a rousing party drinking ale until Ragnarok, Buddhists and Hindus are being reincarnated or becoming one with the infinite, and atheists and agnostics are just...not around anymore.

It would make for some great theatre, anyway.

 

[Prime Junta]

No, she doesn't look like she'd ask you your beliefs before she would get you a drink of water on a hot day, or even care.(Is that a butter churn or an ice cream maker?) It's sad her religious community is so short-sighted and antagonistic to people of divergent beliefs.

Neither. It's a dough vat inoculated with Finnish sourdough starter. It was a wedding gift to an American friend of mine. (I discovered afterward that it made a criminal of me, since importation of biological cultures into the U.S. of A is strictly forbidden. Who knows what that sourdough starter could do...)

Somewhere in this "we have a monopoly on the afterlife" concept there's a great existentialist play lurking. In my meandering exploration of myths and religions, I've often wondered--what if exactly what you believe will happen to you when you die is what determines what does happen?

I picture a huge, confused ethereal universe where devout Christians are playing the harp sitting on clouds or frying in sulpherous flames depending on their level of guilt, where ancient Greeks wander the shores of a dark underground river, Vikings are having a rousing party drinking ale until Ragnarok, Buddhists and Hindus are being reincarnated or becoming one with the infinite, and atheists and agnostics are just...not around anymore.

It would make for some great theatre, anyway.

Have you read Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov, by any chance? One of the ideas he's kicking around in it is just that. If you haven't, you might want to check it out -- I have a feeling you'd enjoy it.

 

[magerette]

Neither. It's a dough vat inoculated with Finnish sourdough starter. It was a wedding gift to an American friend of mine. (I discovered afterward that it made a criminal of me, since importation of biological cultures into the U.S. of A is strictly forbidden. Who knows what that sourdough starter could do...)

All the subtlest terrorists use sourdough starter. See Homeland Security memo #1,344,287:Biological Agents of Mass Destruction.

Have you read Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov, by any chance? One of the ideas he's kicking around in it is just that. If you haven't, you might want to check it out -- I have a feeling you'd enjoy it.

All the best ideas are already taken. Thanks for the rec--I've heard of the title but now it goes on the list.

 

[dteowner]

Found an interesting news article. The topic is actually related to our hijack of the Democratic Party thread, but I thought this thread might be a better home.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_security_success_2

 

[dteowner]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_11

Hamas and Israel playing nice? We'll see how long that lasts.

 

[magerette]

Yeah, just saw this. As you say, believe it when you see it, but as in a bad divorce case, at least the defendant and the plaintiff are talking.

 

[Korplem]

One of my closest friends once sat next to Jimmy Carter on a cross-country flight and talked with him for hours about world peace. Apparently, he's very sincere. You can't help but like the guy and what he's trying to do over there.

Sorry, I'm a little late to the show. I just couldn't help but point out how ironic it is that he may very well be sincere about world peace but his legacy will live on as one of the most advanced weapons of war...

 

[magerette]

I think that has to be a classic example of irony--wonder if the Pentagon has a sense of humor after all?

 

[Corwin]

I think that has to be a classic example of irony--wonder if the Pentagon has a sense of humor after all?

Maybe I've watched too many movies, but the concept of the military mind being in an association with a sense of humour, is somewhat akin to an oxymoron IMO!!