Alpha Protocol - Sells 700k

[Aditya]

Oh, please. Anti-fanboys are as bad as fanboys.

I don't think anti-fanboys would be open for discussing the faults of game and since I am doing that here…

Mind you, I purchased KotOR II and NWN2 as I used to like Obsidian and believed they have talent. I in fact defended AP during its initial phase as the game premise was interesting. On the release tho, there were vastly contradictory reviews in gaming media and on forums and I was unsure whether to purchase AP. Both the sides presented ‘facts’, which only highlighted how inconsistent AP is, overall.

I 'demoed' it and played some initial levels and found it pathetic in almost every sense. The mouse kept on jerking around, the levels were restricted, the story didn't intrigue me, the timed dialogue made no sense for non-critical answers, hacking mini games was horrendous, the cover sometimes worked and sometimes didn’t, melee combat was somewhat overpowered, stealth mechanics didn’t have any logical and consistent rules apart from evading conveniently placed window-staring guards and yet one trigger used to alert everyone in the vicinity forcing the shootout. There were more problems, but in essence, the gameplay was ‘close to broken’ for me.

1. What exactly is broken about its gameplay? Granted it's mostly barebones stuff. Stealth is no Thief for example, but more close to Deus Ex if you could somehow remove retarded stuff like invisibility spells. It doesn't give you much feedback but it works surprisingly well if you've played other stealth games before.

Its foolish to compare stealth in AP to purely stealth oriented games like Thief. But it definitely could have taken inspiration from Splinter Cell…you know, AP being an ‘Espionage’ RPG? Thorton anyways wears a bad-ass suit onto which they easily could have implemented some indicators, a la Double Agent. Some indicator of light, sound etc. Stealth in Deus Ex wasn’t that great to start with, but I don't recall it being as arbitrary as it feels in this game.

2. Like Badesumofu said, hacking minigame is optional. And it is at least 10 times more entertaining than scanning the planets in Mass Effect 2 (which was pretty much NOT optional).

Hacking Mini-game is *entirely* optional? are you sure? are EMP grenades that abundant to bypass each security terminal? And you need to painstakingly save on EMP grenades just to bypass it only coz Obsidian made this so atrocious to play is blind fanboy defence. Sure, you can reduce the difficulty by investing points in Sabotage, but at latter levels it becomes just too chaotic.

Scanning for minerals IS optional in ME2. Minerals are required only if you want to upgrade your weapons and ship, which is totally up to you.

3. What exactly was subpar about the graphics?

AP uses Unreal Engine 3. See any other game using the same engine (Batman: Arkham Asylum, ME2, Bioshock, Gears of war etc ) and hopefully you can see how inferior AP graphics are. The levels are empty, textures blurry and lacking in detail, horrible optimization for PC and a general non-polished look and feel of the game. Since you have habit of comparing AP to ME2, try comparing their presentation as well?

4. Granted, i didn't like the fact that the dialogue was timed. Stance system however was a great deal more logical than the one in Mass Effect. Also dialogue was actually well written.

Stances were *logical*? Explain how. Some of the lines Thorton utters under 'Professional' stance are anything but logically ‘professional’. ME2 uses Paragon and Renegade morality system and hence dialogues are written to reflect those attitudes. AP has some good writing but so does ME2.

I am happy to hear that AP bombed. Obsidian's only apparent strength is writing and even when given enough development time by publishers, they can only produce turds like AP which deserve to get flopped. And to think that some Obsidian developer, in his overconfidence, was contemplating the idea of AP2...well, he must have not even played AP.

 

[Trelow]

I enjoyed it. Then again, I just shot everyone in the face with an assault rifle. Then again, I can't stand the Splinter Cell games. Then again, I can't get it to launch correctly to play it again.

 

[bobisimo]

I really enjoyed Alpha Protocol. It certainly is not a perfect game. It could use a lot of bug fixing and polish. But it plays well. I went through twice with two very different play styles (assault rifle, stealth). Both were enjoyable. I chose different options at story branches and covered a lot of what's available, but a look at a walkthrough shows me that I missed a lot, too. I think they had real potential in building this as a franchise. Well, I thought they did. 700K is a shame. They probably needed a couple million to consider a sequel.

<— waiting for a patch before deciding whether to buy the game or not.

If you're being serious, Sega has announced no patches are forthcoming.

 

[Maylander]

I 'demoed' it and played some initial levels and found it pathetic in almost every sense. The mouse kept on jerking around, the levels were restricted, the story didn't intrigue me, the timed dialogue made no sense for non-critical answers, hacking mini games was horrendous, the cover sometimes worked and sometimes didn’t, melee combat was somewhat overpowered, stealth mechanics didn’t have any logical and consistent rules apart from evading conveniently placed window-staring guards and yet one trigger used to alert everyone in the vicinity forcing the shootout. There were more problems, but in essence, the gameplay was ‘close to broken’ for me.

It picks up. Everyone agrees the start is bad. It's an RPG after all, they're hardly ever good until you get the higher skills. The gameplay reflects that as well.

Its foolish to compare stealth in AP to purely stealth oriented games like Thief. But it definitely could have taken inspiration from Splinter Cell…you know, AP being an ‘Espionage’ RPG? Thorton anyways wears a bad-ass suit onto which they easily could have implemented some indicators, a la Double Agent. Some indicator of light, sound etc. Stealth in Deus Ex wasn’t that great to start with, but I don't recall it being as arbitrary as it feels in this game.

What was the problem with it? Once you have a bunch of points in stealth, it works out just fine. Enemies will have a very hard time seeing you unless you get careless. Without putting points in it, you'll suck at it. That goes for all RPGs. Splinter Cell is not an RPG.

Hacking Mini-game is *entirely* optional? are you sure? are EMP grenades that abundant to bypass each security terminal? And you need to painstakingly save on EMP grenades just to bypass it only coz Obsidian made this so atrocious to play is blind fanboy defence. Sure, you can reduce the difficulty by investing points in Sabotage, but at latter levels it becomes just too chaotic.

Scanning for minerals IS optional in ME2. Minerals are required only if you want to upgrade your weapons and ship, which is totally up to you.

Now you're actually wrong on both accounts. Yes, it is optional in AP, as most locks only contain a bit of money. Very few are related to completing missions.

In ME2, however, it's not optional - the main quest requires you to be upgraded to a certain point, or you'll crash and burn pretty badly (especially the ship upgrades). I suppose it's still "completed", but hardly with a satisfying end.

AP uses Unreal Engine 3. See any other game using the same engine (Batman: Arkham Asylum, ME2, Bioshock, Gears of war etc ) and hopefully you can see how inferior AP graphics are. The levels are empty, textures blurry and lacking in detail, horrible optimization for PC and a general non-polished look and feel of the game. Since you have habit of comparing AP to ME2, try comparing their presentation as well?

AP is significantly heavier on the RPG elements than all those titles, and it's not comparable to games that focus entirely on action and graphics. No RPG has ever had state-of-the-art graphics. ME2 is probably the best we've seen, and that had the advantage of being able to polish everything done in ME1.

Stances were *logical*? Explain how. Some of the lines Thorton utters under 'Professional' stance are anything but logically ‘professional’. ME2 uses Paragon and Renegade morality system and hence dialogues are written to reflect those attitudes. AP has some good writing but so does ME2.

Please do not even compare the writing of ME2 and AP. I like ME2 a lot, but the main quest is so filled with holes and complete nonsense it doesn't even make any sense. As a reference, read all three parts:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

It's redicilous.

I have to state again though that I do like ME2 a lot and I have replayed it several times by now, but the writing? No, the game was never good due to the writing. ME1 was far beyond it.

A little addendum: The latest ME2 DLC probably had the best writing we've seen so far in the game. The story was actually captivating, with an ending that was.. disturbing. Not often I am affected by games in such a way.

 

[DeepO]

Not surprising and not good.

I think that probably the main reason for the flop was that aspects the game does really well generally appeal more to niche gamers, while it lacks in aspects that could potentially generate more enthusiastic response on the mainstream side of things. Media largely reflected this, though imo very often in a biased manner, especially in the light of, say, ME2 coverage.

I think that Obsidian got the AA thing on lockdown with MotB (bar camera/UI) and the pursue towards AAA just doesn´t suit them well. New Vegas will be the obvious deciding point, but personally I think aiming towards the more indie waters should be for the best.

Even with its shortcomings, I really enjoyed Alpha Protocol and think that it´s a pity Obsidian most likely won´t expand upon the franchise and its concepts any further.

 

[Aditya]

It picks up. Everyone agrees the start is bad. It's an RPG after all, they're hardly ever good until you get the higher skills. The gameplay reflects that as well.

I have read that it becomes 'tolerable' after Saudi Arabia missions, but I really do not care. It failed to motivate me to play further due to number of design short sights and mildly frustrating gameplay. I don't play games simply to gain higher skill level but to enjoy the actual gameplay.

What was the problem with it? Once you have a bunch of points in stealth, it works out just fine. Enemies will have a very hard time seeing you unless you get careless. Without putting points in it, you'll suck at it. That goes for all RPGs. Splinter Cell is not an RPG.

The example of Splinter Cell was given to indicate how AP could have implemented visual and aural clues for stealth gameplay. Even Bloodlines had such meters. The unrelaibale cover system coupled with terribly inconsistent AI make for bare bones stealth mechanics which feels random and unsatisfactory…not what I expected from a game based on being a *spy*.

Now you're actually wrong on both accounts.

Am I? Lets see.

1) I *asked* if hacking mini-game is optional, to which you say:

Very few are related to completing missions.

Doesn't sound like its *optional* then.

2) I said mining planets in ME2 IS optional to which you say,

In ME2, however, it's not optional - the main quest requires you to be upgraded to a certain point, or you'll crash and burn pretty badly (especially the ship upgrades). I suppose it's still "completed", but hardly with a satisfying end.

So since at no point you are ever *required* to mine for minerals, it is optional. If your ship gets badly burned due to not upgrading it, then its an appropriate consequence, no?

AP is significantly heavier on the RPG elements than all those titles, and it's not comparable to games that focus entirely on action and graphics. No RPG has ever had state-of-the-art graphics. ME2 is probably the best we've seen, and that had the advantage of being able to polish everything done in ME1.

He asked why I think the graphics are sub-par to which I answered by means of giving examples of other Unreal Engine games, some of which are in the same vein of AP [ME2, Bioshock etc].

Also, what RPG elements of AP are you talking about? You invest points in weapon skills and such and you get better at it…which is a bare min of an RPG. How that should prevent from AP having good graphics and presentation? Not to mention generally studios have separate department to work on visual aspects and AP had a ready made engine to work with. They have somehow succeeded in making AP look like one generation behind.

Please do not even compare the writing of ME2 and AP. I like ME2 a lot, but the main quest is so filled with holes and complete nonsense it doesn't even make any sense. As a reference, read all three parts:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

It's redicilous.

Yep, I agree. ME2 is littered with plot holes and I HATE it for that. But I was talking about the *quality* of writing, not the story. As in, the dialogue, codex entries and such. Interacting with companions such as Mordin was fun due his often clever and witty dialogues.

But even AP's story is filled with cliches and doesn't offer anything new or exciting… doesn't really showcase Chris Avellone's fabled caliber in storytelling. And even if we agree AP has better writing than ME2, that alone isn't worth saving the game. The gameplay just isn't fun, unlike ME2.

 

[Gorath]

AP is still $50 at all the retail stores that I've seen it at recently. Best Buy, Gamestop, Etc.

AP was pretty much never sold at full price in Europe. Several big etailers lowered the price significantly before release, even to mid price level AFAIR. A clear sign that demand was low.
See Moriendor's detailed post close to release for more details.

 

[Davion]

Far better than what I expected AP would en up getting to. Still though, it's one of the few games that I regretted buying for the full price of 50€ (in Europe).

It was an okay, sometimes amusing, game during the 2 playthroughs I did, but I'll never reinstall it. Sure, there are other games I've only finished once and never reinstalled, but of this one I'm sure of it I'll never do it.

There are just a few bits that really put me off from the game and eat away any desire to ever replay it again, which is rare in my extensive game collection.

 

[DPB]

AP was pretty much never sold at full price in Europe. Several big etailers lowered the price significantly before release, even to mid price level AFAIR. A clear sign that demand was low.

Yep, it was £18 ($28/€22) here, not much more than expansion pack.

I still haven't got round to playing it yet, since I'm waiting for them to fix the jerky mouse camera controls, I find it almost unplayable in its current state. I've tried all the fixes and the only one that works reliably is using a controller instead, but that's not a satisfactory alternative.

 

[JDR13]

Why would the price be lowered even before it was released? Just because it wasn't heavily preordered? I've never seen that in the US.

 

[northreign]

Why would the price be lowered even before it was released? Just because it wasn't heavily preordered? I've never seen that in the US.

They offer discounts which drop the price on that game or the next a la amazon.com

 

[Gorath]

Why would the price be lowered even before it was released? Just because it wasn't heavily preordered? I've never seen that in the US.

The most logical answer if the price cut was after replication:

High sell-in meets low demand. Now the merchants are sitting on a lot of inventory. The channel is stuffed. Sega has already spent 2 EUR * nnn.nnn for the PC version and 12 EUR * nnn.nnn for the console versions in advance.
Sega's key accounts receive a couple of phone calls from key clients telling them rotation is too low. (translation: Do something or else.)
The alarm bells ring. Unsold inventory is sent back after a certain time for full credit. Ouch. A stuffed channel makes clients unhappy, slow rotation makes them even more unhappy, unhappy clients order less units of the next game. Double ouch. Payment targets for sell-though by key customers are usually 3-6 months. And the game is not even selling. Triple ouch.
So Sega decides to get it over with and cut the losses. They stimulate demand by lowering the whole sale price. The retailers are happy again.
Lower price - higher margin (%) for merchants - constant fixed costs = much less profit per unit. Bam, they're earning only 10 EUR per unit instead of 25 EUR. (Made-up numbers.)

The even simpler answer would be:
There was almost zero demand (from Sega's perspective, they count in millions). The price cut was necessary to create at least some momentum.

 

[JDR13]

So "demand", in this instance, was determined solely from preorders?

I also find it odd that the price hasn't dropped in the US.

 

[Gorath]

So "demand", in this instance, was determined solely from preorders?

Experience. They know the preorders for their other games, and they know most units are sold within the first 6 weeks after release.[/quote]

I also find it odd that the price hasn't dropped in the US.

Different market. Maybe the situation was more rosy in the US.

I remember I was quite surprised AP was on sale everywhere and still was out of the top 3 after 1 week or so.

 

[fatBastard()]

I have read that it becomes 'tolerable' after Saudi Arabia missions, but I really do not care. It failed to motivate me to play further due to number of design short sights and mildly frustrating gameplay. I don't play games simply to gain higher skill level but to enjoy the actual gameplay.

Which means that you didn't care for the style/type/feel of the game. It doesn't really mean that it is bad as such, just that YOU didn't like it. Especially since you couldn't be bothered to play to a point where:

A) The game picks up
B) You skill investments start to pay off

The example of Splinter Cell was given to indicate how AP could have implemented visual and aural clues for stealth gameplay. Even Bloodlines had such meters. The unrelaibale cover system coupled with terribly inconsistent AI make for bare bones stealth mechanics which feels random and unsatisfactory…not what I expected from a game based on being a *spy*.

Again, since you didn't play long enough to see what happens when you puts points into the Stealth skill, you don't really know how the stealth mechanics work, do you? As Maylander said, AP is an RPG with upgradable skills. If Stealth at level 1 makes you Sam Fisher what would Stealth at level 15 make you? All skills are SUPPOSED to be less than stellar at low levels ... this goes for all RPGs.

Am I? Lets see.

1) I *asked* if hacking mini-game is optional, to which you say:



Doesn't sound like its *optional* then.

2) I said mining planets in ME2 IS optional to which you say,



So since at no point you are ever *required* to mine for minerals, it is optional. If your ship gets badly burned due to not upgrading it, then its an appropriate consequence, no?

Well in that vein, neither is firing a weapon in a shooter or building a base in a RTS strictly "necessary" since eventually you'll get a Game Over ending anyway, so they too must be optional elements. Riiiight.

 

[coyote]

<— waiting for a patch before deciding whether to buy the game or not.

If you're being serious, Sega has announced no patches are forthcoming.

I did not know that, but considering that I heard numerous reports of Alpha Protocol having serious issues to be patched and that Obsidian Entertainment said they are willing to work on improving them, this is a sad move by SEGA.

If it is true, I am certain that I will not buy Alpha Protocol, though, as I would never willingly support a company with such blatant disregard for their customers and lack of commitment to their products. Their loss, and it's not exactly helping their reputation, either.

 

[Aditya]

Which means that you didn't care for the style/type/feel of the game. It doesn't really mean that it is bad as such, just that YOU didn't like it. Especially since you couldn't be bothered to play to a point where:

A) The game picks up
B) You skill investments start to pay off

Re-read my previous posts. I certainly was interested in this style/type/whatever of this game.

I am tired of hearing this 'game picks up' argument. There are plenty of RPG out there which don't require you to wait 4 hours before you actually start enjoying the game. See, Dragon Age, The Witcher, Mass Effect, Risen, Bloodlines, Morrowind etc. If you play the game only to see how 1 point of stealth increases your chances of being hidden from enemies and thats how you define the 'style' of this game, brownies to you. I have read in forums enough to know that the gameplay inconsistencies continue throughout the game.

Again, since you didn't play long enough to see what happens when you puts points into the Stealth skill, you don't really know how the stealth mechanics work, do you? As Maylander said, AP is an RPG with upgradable skills. If Stealth at level 1 makes you Sam Fisher what would Stealth at level 15 make you? All skills are SUPPOSED to be less than stellar at low levels … this goes for all RPGs.

Read above. Also where do you invest points to improve cover mechanics, AI, animation, clunky controls or it automatically gets better after you have played for 8 hours?

Well in that vein, neither is firing a weapon in a shooter or building a base in a RTS strictly "necessary" since eventually you'll get a Game Over ending anyway, so they too must be optional elements. Riiiight.

Go play ME2 first. You will understand that even if your ship gets destroyed and Commander Shepad dies, it is NOT 'Game Over' screen. The fact that you can naturally die on a suicide mission was a well advertised fact.

 

[Dhruin]

It's perfectly reasonable not to choose games with a slow start but - likewise - other people will find the payoff is worthwhile. Some of my favourite games ever had slow starts for my taste. I also rarely separate "gameplay" from the other elements; to me, the dialogue, quests, story and "gameplay" are all part of the experience. I've often enjoyed games because of the story (or quests or whatever) despite lacklustre "gameplay" if you treat that as some sort of separate entity.

For me, the package of AP was considerably better than some of your examples. I generally enjoyed ME2 but it was repetitive and predictable. The combat arenas were so clearly telegraphed (here comes the cover!), stealth isn't a choice and even the biotics were watered down. The loyalty quests were pretty good - but again, predictable (everyone has one - just one! family issue they need to take care of).

You mention Morrowind - I found the "gameplay" unbelievably sub-standard. The combat is awful with absolutely no "weight", no feedback - and you can't exactly fall back on the dialogue. The animation is terrible, there's virtually no AI...sound familiar?

Anyway, you don't like AP. But it isn't an absolute and that doesn't make everyone else a fanboy.

 

[bemushroomed]

People play games for different reasons.. i would never appreciate AP since i don't care that much about story or characters, especially since it's always complete crap compared to movies (or books) anyways + movies has way better acting. I even find it odd that people can play games mostly for story/characters, i guess i'm too picky to appreciate a subpar story.

I consider Morrowind one of the best RPG's because of the interesting lore and locations + freedom to do go and do what you want, i agree that the combat (unmodded) is really bad and AI too (like in most RPG's).

 

[Aditya]

I also rarely separate "gameplay" from the other elements; to me, the dialogue, quests, story and "gameplay" are all part of the experience. I've often enjoyed games because of the story (or quests or whatever) despite lacklustre "gameplay" if you treat that as some sort of separate entity.

We can call them separate entities. Torment is not known for its gameplay but story and dialogue mainly. On the other hand, ARPGs are all about gameplay. I am also sucker for good stories but AP doesn't shine even there, which is strange considering MCA involvement.

You mention Morrowind - I found the "gameplay" unbelievably sub-standard. The combat is awful with absolutely no "weight", no feedback - and you can't exactly fall back on the dialogue. The animation is terrible, there's virtually no AI…sound familiar?

For an open-ended sandbox RPG, Morrowind presented a beautiful n strange world right off the bat. Combat wasn't good, but questing and exploration was immensely fun. The point of bringing Morrowind on the discussion table was mainly to illustrate how it enticed me to play further right after I stepped out of Sellus Gravius' office. I wasn't required to trudge for some some more hours to see how the game magically becomes 'good' later on.

Anyway, you don't like AP. But it isn't an absolute and that doesn't make everyone else a fanboy.

Get over that 'fanboy' thing already! You aren't one, so why bother? I said that to the poster who was calling reviewers dishonest when in fact many reviewers have praised c&c part of AP even when they have severely criticized almost everything else.

By the way, since you aren't a fanboy, I am interested to know your views on combat n stealth mechanics of AP.