Another race speech from Barack

dteowner

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I couldn't find the thread where we recently discussed Obama, racism, and the race card (among half a dozen wandering topics), so I'll start another.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080715/ap_on_el_pr/obama_blacks

I really hope this isn't just political BS. I haven't heard this sort of talk from a black leader (outside of Cosby, who was thrashed by the black community for it) in years and years. As a righty whitey, I'm impressed and encouraged. If he somehow manages not to get elected, I hope he takes a more prominent role in civil rights. You replace Jesse and Al's nonsensical grandstanding with this sort of message and I really believe a lot more people of all races will listen and act.
 
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It may be political, but I don't think it's BS. He's been saying it for a long time, and it's also how he has lived his own life.
 
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America is great at helping people that are trying to help themselves. If the black community heeds Barack's call, I think you'll see a lot of the current resistance from whites will go away.
 
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Another good speech. He might flip flop a bit about a few things that he knows he can't take a liberal view on without giving ammunition to the "soft on terror" allegations that are the only thing which would give McCain a serious chance of winning, but there's other stuff where he seems remarkably consistent and passionate about.

We're getting a similar kind of swing here in the UK towards greater personal responsibility, fingers crossed it takes root in both places.
 
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Personal responsibility is nearly extinct in this country, regardless of race. If Barrack can restore that, he'll be the best President in 100 years.
 
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Personal responsibility is nearly extinct in this country, regardless of race. If Barrack can restore that, he'll be the best President in 100 years.

It'd be nice to see your country get a tad less litigious as well, which would kind of go hand in hand with a greater sense of personal responsibility.
 
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I agree. My biggest problems with lawyers is that they have the attitude that "well if there weren't clients, we wouldn't file lawsuits." IE, it's not their fault.

In my industry, that kind of thinking doesn't fly. If you are licensed, or otherwise certified, you are held to a higher standard. The bar associations really need to do a better job of policing their own.
 
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American litigiousness is a pretty obvious consequence of American tort law. The system provides very strong incentives to sue whenever possible, since damages are awarded based on the defendant's ability to pay rather than the amount of damage caused. That is, successfully suing a rich defendant can net you very large amounts of money. With these incentives, *not* to sue would be stupid.

Most countries aren't like this. Instead, you're awarded damages that will cover whatever loss you suffered, plus possible intangibles like pain and suffering; if additionally the defendant is determined to have committed a crime, that's a separate criminal case with separate penalties. The incentives are different, consequently there are fewer lawsuits.

I.e., if you want America to become less litigious, appealing to the professional ethics of lawyers won't help. Changing the incentives will. That's the free market in action again...
 
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I.e., if you want America to become less litigious, appealing to the professional ethics of lawyers won't help. Changing the incentives will. That's the free market in action again...

Unfortunately you'd need lawyers to push through any decent tort reform and they're always against it.

Mind you, Australia managed it.
 
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That's because Australia is the best!! :)
 
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American litigiousness is a pretty obvious consequence of American tort law. The system provides very strong incentives to sue whenever possible, since damages are awarded based on the defendant's ability to pay rather than the amount of damage caused. That is, successfully suing a rich defendant can net you very large amounts of money. With these incentives, *not* to sue would be stupid.

Most countries aren't like this. Instead, you're awarded damages that will cover whatever loss you suffered, plus possible intangibles like pain and suffering; if additionally the defendant is determined to have committed a crime, that's a separate criminal case with separate penalties. The incentives are different, consequently there are fewer lawsuits.

I.e., if you want America to become less litigious, appealing to the professional ethics of lawyers won't help. Changing the incentives will. That's the free market in action again...

That's not exactly accurate. There actual and punitive damages. Actual damages are like what you are talking about. Punitive damages are designed to punish the person enough to make them not consider not doing it again. While in practice it can be problematic, in theory it makes sense. As an example:

If I chose to drive with no insurance and kill or significantly impair someone in an accident I caused, the impact of the lawsuit if only actual damages could be awarded is very different if I am rich or poor:

If I am poor, the actual damages alone are potentially enough to make sure I never drive without insurance again and hopefully am a better driver.

If I am rich, the actual damages may constitute a very small portion of my wealth, and hence it isn't going to affect me or change my behavior (outside of any moral revelations I might have).

That is where punitive damages level the playing field.

The problem, IMO, is that the punitive damages go to the victim. IMO, they victim should have the choice of where to donate that money, but should not be able to keep it. We would have less litigation, because the potential for jackpot rulings is gone, but still retain the inhibition imposed by the punitive damages.

Additionally, there should be a cap on the amount that attorney's can collect. Not necessarily dollar wise, but percentage wise. In just about every case, less than 50% of the awarded damages go to the victim. The attorney is reimbursed for expenses (which is fine, so long as they are not over inflated, which from my experience they often are) and then gets 50% of the award as well. And not 50% of what is left after expenses, 50% of the GROSS amount.

Attorneys will go on and on about how they sink so much time and effort into cases with the potential that they get nothing back, so the deserve that. I completely disagree. Yes, they should be well compensated, but their take home should never be more than the victims.

Take out the potential for the jackpot awards and reduce the incentive for attorney's to file any lawsuit they can, and we'd be a long way to having a reasonable judicial system, and an efficient one as it would unclog a lot of the courts.


Unfortunately you'd need lawyers to push through any decent tort reform and they're always against it.

Mind you, Australia managed it.

So did Texas. It's been a mixed bag return, but I still think it was the right move.
 
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The problem, IMO, is that the punitive damages go to the victim. IMO, they victim should have the choice of where to donate that money, but should not be able to keep it. We would have less litigation, because the potential for jackpot rulings is gone, but still retain the inhibition imposed by the punitive damages.

That would be a creative and very good solution, which I believe would also be very much in tune with the American sense of right, wrong, and fairness.
 
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You know, the state of Texas is rapidly becoming the conservative equivalent of California liberalism in terms of governance and legalities--way out there leading the parade.

Few years to get our manure together and then move to Fort Worth, bn?
 
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Maybe. I still need to finish making my fortune in NYC!
 
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The problem, IMO, is that the punitive damages go to the victim. IMO, they victim should have the choice of where to donate that money, but should not be able to keep it. We would have less litigation, because the potential for jackpot rulings is gone, but still retain the inhibition imposed by the punitive damages.

Additionally, there should be a cap on the amount that attorney's can collect. Not necessarily dollar wise, but percentage wise. In just about every case, less than 50% of the awarded damages go to the victim. The attorney is reimbursed for expenses (which is fine, so long as they are not over inflated, which from my experience they often are) and then gets 50% of the award as well. And not 50% of what is left after expenses, 50% of the GROSS amount.

Attorneys will go on and on about how they sink so much time and effort into cases with the potential that they get nothing back, so the deserve that. I completely disagree. Yes, they should be well compensated, but their take home should never be more than the victims. .

I'd readily support both those reforms. And as for attorneys complaining that they sink time and effort into cases without guaranteed returns, surely this is a prime example of market forces at work? The higher the jackpot potential, the higher the proportion of unsuitable cases cluttering up the legal system because a smaller number of successful cases can support a slew of pointless cases.

Also the higher the jackpot potential winnings the higher the level of settling out of court for nominal sums, if the potential downside from fighting and losing is reduced more insurers would contest the loss.
 
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Bringing this back around to topic, I caught this little tidbit:
source

I seem to remember some highly intelligent (and wickedly handsome) fellow predicting that Obama wouldn't be able to pass up the chance for some reverse racism. This is a pretty minor shot across the bow, IMO, but I do wonder if it's a sign of bad things to come.
 
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I was wondering when your vulture-like eye would pick this one up. ;)

Here's my counter:
Playing the "Playing the Race Card" Card

The guy just makes the point that Obama's remark is pre-emptive strategy. I think it's a very smart reaction from the blood-drinking Rove accolytes Rick Davis and Steve Schmidt to pounce on it and turn it to his disadvantage.

I think that with a very few exceptions, whenever the discussion focus is on race and racism, it's a lose for Obama.
 
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Pretty much, "much ado about nothing", but I'll be happy to exploit it for all it's worth. ;) McFossil needs every angle he can get, even if he's got to parse words to create them, right?

I particularly liked the phrase, "bearer of racial grievance" in reference to Jesse and Al. I might have to borrow that one going forward.
 
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Its always funny how some American whites (like dteonwer) expect us to completely divorce ourselves from our skin color in order to succeed. You're the ones with all the wealth, power, influence, and numbers. You've got the majority and the burden of being colorblind is placed on US?

Despite this, many of us go through great lengths (myself included) to "assimilate" and dissosiciate from all the negative stereotypes attributed to our race. Then when it finally does happen, you're STILL not good enough. Then you're not patriotic enough, too exotic, don't "share our values".

Barack Obama doesn't have to play the race card. He is LIVING it. Right now.

So please spare me all this bullshit about being offended when you're reminded how vile some of your people have been and how those aligned with McCain are eventually gonna use race to push their agenda. This isn't reverse racism. Its a FACT about certain white people who think they are superior by their very genetics. And don't even start with the crap about how your family is blameless because they came over after slavery or didn't live in the Jim Crow south. If you are white, you benefit from white privilige. Its as simple as that.
 
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