At Least 14 Killed in Colo. Movie Shooting

[Charles-cgr]

Once the tougher gun laws go into effect, it takes a LONG time for the market to desaturate especially if people saw it coming and hoarded firearms…

Not exactly perishable goods

@blatantninja I agree that in some cases the fact that the targeted victims are likely to have guns will work as a deterrent. But for the other part... Escalation?

And comparing to the 60s and 70s... Not sure there was the same craziness in a time period where economics were better.

As for the causes of the craziness I believe it is connected not to poverty but despair. Being poor doesn't drive you nuts if you've chosen to accept it. Staying poor when you work your ass off to get out of it, something relatively new, could do the trick for some.

I own guns btw. One very nasty hunting rifle that would both kill the intruder and dig his hole in the ground at the same time. All licensed and everything. I don't have a clear-cut stand on this issue.

Oh and legalize our cheeses already

 

[Asdraguuhl]

I guess I should have said, all I need to do is go in the street and ask someone for a weapon and give him 500 dollars

They captured "93,000" weapons !!! Damn!

You simply let bias and prejudice get the better of you.

 

[Pladio]

You simply let bias and prejudice get the better of you.

I guess, but it doesn't change the point that the drug laws are useless in a country where corruption is key and the laws are not enforced much.
My brother lived in Mexico for 2 years and told me he saw places where the police didn't dare enter. The country is lawless in many places.

So whether or not you buy a gun in a gun shop or not doesn't matter much if it's still easily accessible in other ways. The point remains that in the US, the law should be more enforceable than in Mexico.

 

[dteowner]

Are you kidding ? 30's were the times of the gangland wars, mafia wars and so on … No gun crime ?

The period you're thinking of is actually "The Roaring 20's". They had that little Prohibition thing going during that time, so it's a little misleading. Yet another misguided attempt by government to legislate culture, and that went so well... Sure, let's go down the same road with gun control!

 

[dteowner]

Once the tougher gun laws go into effect, it takes a LONG time for the market to desaturate especially if people saw it coming and hoarded firearms…

According to reports I heard today (which I haven't taken the time to confirm, but I have no reason to doubt them), gun sales in the US and particularly in Colorado, have skyrocketed in the days since Aurora. Supposedly, the two drivers are people wanting self-defense and people worried that the lefties will dance on graves to jam thru some sort of gun control.

 

[dteowner]

So whether or not you buy a gun in a gun shop or not doesn't matter much if it's still easily accessible in other ways. The point remains that in the US, the law should be more enforceable than in Mexico.

So, we circle back to the same faulty logic. Murderers are, by definition, law breakers (self-defense cases would be "killers" rather than murderers, just so we don't get bogged down in pedantry). Your solution, by your own statement, relies on proper enforcement of the laws. So, your answer is to place legal restrictions on people that, by definition, do not follow legal restrictions.

It's really fairly simple, folks.

 

[Pladio]

The period you're thinking of is actually "The Roaring 20's". They had that little Prohibition thing going during that time, so it's a little misleading. Yet another misguided attempt by government to legislate culture, and that went so well… Sure, let's go down the same road with gun control!

Ah. Ok then. Thanks

I don't think illegalizing (is that a word ?) guns is a good thing either by the way. Restrictions though, I'm all for that. It should be very difficult to get guns, but healthy people who go through regular checks for accuracy and reflexes is ok in my book. I just think automatic guns is a stupid thing to give to civilians. Won't help much in my opinion for self-defence...

For example, guns are legal in Belgium and I actually know a store near where I used to live that sold some rifles and guns. It's just not easy to get your hands on them. Also people do not believe the government is going to turn on them like you seem to.

So all in all, the rules in Belgium make sense to me more than the rules in the US for now. Also, the answer I gave was more in jest than me arguing against what he had said. That's why I did add the smilies.

This one is a bit more thought-out though, so you can go ahead and poke holes in this.

 

[dteowner]

As for the causes of the craziness I believe it is connected not to poverty but despair. Being poor doesn't drive you nuts if you've chosen to accept it. Staying poor when you work your ass off to get out of it, something relatively new, could do the trick for some.

Agreed, although I would extend that to include a complete collapse of discipline and respect. We've done our level best to eliminate bad consequences from any and all actions, so when people get frustrated, it's far more likely to be turned outward because it certainly can't be their fault.

Which, ironically, was largely what DArt was saying at the beginning of the thread. He quickly ran off into the weeds with the whole gun control thing, but at the beginning he properly identified the root cause as one of culture.

 

[Pladio]

So, we circle back to the same faulty logic. Murderers are, by definition, law breakers (self-defense cases would be "killers" rather than murderers, just so we don't get bogged down in pedantry). Your solution, by your own statement, relies on proper enforcement of the laws. So, your answer is to place legal restrictions on people that, by definition, do not follow legal restrictions.

It's really fairly simple, folks.

Well, yes and no. I am arguing for better enforcement of laws than those done in Mexico and a change in the current law system. See previous post : basically taking automatic weapons off of regular Joes. I don't see much use for them.

I'm not saying they should ban all weapons, just like I'm not saying they should stop serving alcohol.

To be honest though and I know this isn't directly related to our guns discussion, but what do you think of drugs then ? Since the laws aren't stopping people from using drugs and so on ?

 

[Thrasher]

According to reports I heard today (which I haven't taken the time to confirm, but I have no reason to doubt them), gun sales in the US and particularly in Colorado, have skyrocketed in the days since Aurora. Supposedly, the two drivers are people wanting self-defense and people worried that the lefties will dance on graves to jam thru some sort of gun control.

The point being that recent gun laws in Mexico will take a long time to have any significant effect if any at all in a lawless country like it is. Thus, Mexico is a bad example.

 

[dteowner]

I don't think illegalizing (is that a word ?) guns is a good thing either by the way. Restrictions though, I'm all for that. It should be very difficult to get guns, but healthy people who go through regular checks for accuracy and reflexes is ok in my book. I just think automatic guns is a stupid thing to give to civilians. Won't help much in my opinion for self-defence…

No worries. I actually agree with you as far as assault weapons. I don't personally see the point. I just don't see isolated citizens, even in groups, being able to stand up to a government assault, whether they're packing military grade weaponry or not. That said, I do understand the concerns of gun supporters over the slippery slope, particularly seeing all the horrible logic that gets tossed about to justify a fast ride down that slope, such as this thread.

 

[dteowner]

To be honest though and I know this isn't directly related to our guns discussion, but what do you think of drugs then ? Since the laws aren't stopping people from using drugs and so on ?

While a tangent, it does actually tie in somewhat. Like everything else for me, it comes down to personal responsibility and significant consequences. Actually, in my rosy little world, it's more like draconian consequences, but that's neither here nor there.

If someone wants to destroy themselves thru chemistry in their own home, I say more power to them. I don't approve of the behavior, but I understand how utterly worthless my approval is in the big scheme of things. If, on the other hand, our little stoner steps out into public while impaired, then their poor choices are having dangerous effects on others. At that point, we break out the thumb screws and iron maiden and show them the consequences of that particular bad decision.

 

[CrazyIrish]

Agreed, although I would extend that to include a complete collapse of discipline and respect. We've done our level best to eliminate bad consequences from any and all actions, so when people get frustrated, it's far more likely to be turned outward because it certainly can't be their fault.

I believe this to be the disease that causes all the symptoms we argue about here. I also believe that if we can properly combat this disease, then many of the big issues of our day will simply go away all by themselves.

Sadly, it ain't happening. So as a consolation prize I'll keep my guns

 

[Charles-cgr]

I don't think a quick correlation between guns and drugs is appropriate. Guns don't drive you mad with addiction, withdrawal and do not, as far as I can tell, alter your behavior and perception.

One heroin fix and you're screwed for life, or close enough.

 

[Thrasher]

Personal responsibility goes out the window when you have a society that has screwed you over. That's the reason for revolutions and armed insurrections. And sometimes at an individual level as well.

 

[BillSeurer]

Look at the numbers by state in the US (States are generally much more comparable in size and population to most nations). Without exception, every state with a high murder rate also has strict gun control laws. Every state with lax gun control laws has a lower murder rate.

This is just not true.

In 2010

Arizona: 408 per 100,000

California: 440 per 100,000

Minnesota: 236 per 100,000

New York: 392 per 100,000

Texas: 450 per 100,000

 

[CrazyIrish]

I don't think a quick correlation between guns and drugs is appropriate. Guns don't drive you mad with addiction, withdrawal and do not, as far as I can tell, alter your behavior and perception.

Are you sure? Many here seems to think that otherwise relatively normal people are prone to go on mass shooting sprees if they have access to a firearm.

 

[Thrasher]

No, it's the other way around. Psychos (or at least neurotics) buy guns because of their fears.

 

[CrazyIrish]

This is just not true.

In 2010

Arizona: 408 per 100,000

California: 440 per 100,000

Minnesota: 236 per 100,000

New York: 392 per 100,000

Texas: 450 per 100,000

Only 2 states in your list have "lax" gun laws. Minnesota & Arizona. I did say "without exception" so the point is yours. I will mention that drug cartels have made parts of Arizona so dangerous that there are actually signs posted in certain areas telling civilians to vacate. I would consider that an artificial inflation, and taken into account supports my point.

 

[Maylander]

Look at the numbers by state in the US (States are generally much more comparable in size and population to most nations).

No, they're not. Comparing the Netherlands, Germany and so on to the US is far more accurate than states, as they contain a similar variation in terms of cities, farmland, poverty vs wealth, education and so on and so forth. States like New York are bound to be different from places like Alaska where the nearest neighbor is miles away.

Massive states like California and Texas are certainly comparable, as they're practically the size of countries, but as far as I know they don't really differ all that much in terms of crime rates.