Atomic Gamer - 10 Things Wanted For Mass Effect 2

[woges]

Well, hardly, the "dramatic situation" is not the only level to understand literature. You can look at the "human situation" inside any dramatic situation for example or an endless stream of possibilities or thoughts.

Not holding Bioware up to Dune is not really much of a criticism considering Dune took some 6 years of research and a year and a half of writing. There's an interesting essay by Frank Herbert on the Genesis of Dune that I've always been rather fond of, it's not just dramatic situation that makes good or interesting writing.

 

[Essaliad]

Well, hardly, the "dramatic situation" is not the only level to understand literature.

Exactly my problem with the "oh everything fits into this formula, ergo everything is formulaic, SEEEEEE?" reductive reasoning, which should be beaten out of everybody by the time they graduate high school.

 

[Dyne]

Well, hardly, the "dramatic situation" is not the only level to understand literature. You can look at the "human situation" inside any dramatic situation for example or an endless stream of possibilities or thoughts.

Yes, but generally speaking the "human situation" results from the dramatic situation.

Unless you're writing a story focused solely on an existential, solipsistic or some other metaphysical crisis, your character/s will require an external act or actor to allow you the opportunity to examine whatever part of the human condition you're trying to investigate. An act which will likely be one of the 36 situations in Polti's list or a derivation thereof.

 

[Thaurin]

So you're aware that it's a reductive and oversimplified way of looking at things.

No, I agree that it's a proven way of story telling that works! Not the only one, of course.

Are you trying to prove that Bioware doesn't produce garbage that recycles the same tripe over and over and over again, or that the recycling of garbage is perfectly okay because nothing escapes what you think is the One True Formula anyway?

Why do you think I am trying to defend anything? Are you so stuck in attack mode that you see defences everywhere you go?

Oh, and while we're at it--tell me what obstacles were overcome in 1984, which isn't even a particularly obscure book and is definitely sci-fi. Maybe breaking under torture counts as "overcoming an obstacle"!

Let me finish it and I'll tell you if it followed that formula. Note that I didn't say that all literature needs to follow that formula.

Considering that a great fat lot of what's considered "good literature" doesn't concern itself with characterization, let alone the inducement of change in characters, I cannot LOL enough at this.

You "lol" at my notion of what good literature is? I'm happy for you that the opinion of other people can amuse you so much.

I guess those aren't good literature in your eyes, not because you have any valid criticism or counter-interpretation to offer, but because characters in them don't change

Such negativity. I was like you once.

 

[woges]

Yes, but generally speaking the "human situation" results from the dramatic situation.

Unless you're writing a story focused solely on an existential, solipsistic or some other metaphysical crisis, your character/s will require an external act or actor to allow you the opportunity to examine whatever part of the human condition you're trying to investigate. An act which will likely be one of the 36 situations in Polti's list or a derivation thereof.

Well, hardly , metaphor for example doesn't do it that way. There's just many more ways of expression explored in writing than you'll get in computer games. Words and writing is an art form of grand sophistication; moods, themes, alliteration, onomatopoeia, poetry it's not all driven by "a character" and "a situation". A lot of the time games aren't even doing much interesting within their character driven limits. Which I'm sure some of you bemoan.

"One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back."

 

[woges]

Oh, I haven't played Mass Effect - is it any good?

 

[Essaliad]

No, I agree that it's a proven way of story telling that works! Not the only one, of course.

"Actually, all sci-fi and fantasy works like this."

Why do you think I am trying to defend anything? Are you so stuck in attack mode that you see defences everywhere you go?

Er, maybe because the thread is about ME? Gosh. Maybe possibly because you ended your post with "ME is great!!!!"? Are you so stuck in your smugness that you can't even bother reading your own posts and keep a semblance of consistency?

Let me finish it and I'll tell you if it followed that formula. Note that I didn't say that all literature needs to follow that formula.

"Actually, all sci-fi and fantasy works like this."

Such negativity. I was like you once.

Such vague, self-satisfied smugness that has no bearing on anything whatsoever.

Oh, I haven't played Mass Effect - is it any good?

It's a pile of mediocrity. Think KotOR but with improved graphics: space opera with not even one single hint of originality, liberal ripping-off of much better works (Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, Farscape--yeah, those are better than ME), a plot that has you again face the threat of a GREAT ANCIENT EVIL to SAVE THE UNIVERSE wheeee. Incredibly embarrassing romantic dialogue, equally embarrassing sex scene with nauseating music in the background. And a lot of filler side-quests that are genuinely horrible; you drive around a vehicle that's almost impossible to control around maps that are all identical except with a slight texture change (and sometimes not even that) to accomplish identical missions (collect X of Y, go here and kill some aliens or robots) in identical interiors (the inside of a base or a ship which always looks the same except for the number and arrangement of boxes). I think even the most Bioware-fluid-guzzling fantard agrees that those side-missions and the Mako are badly implemented. You, again, have dark/light side meters, only this time it's "Paragon" and "Renegade." Keep in mind: apart from cosmetic differences in dialogue choices, there is no difference whatsoever between the two paths, apart from a few "choose the light or the dark!" moments that don't take into account your previous choices, much like the Sith temple in KotOR. ME disdains choices and consequences. To wit, there is none.

You can, of course, skip those MMORPG-esque tedious stupidity, but then the game will be about, what, ten hours long? Combat is pretty awful as well, what with your teammates having AI that must've been outdated when the first Half-Life came out. So they run between you and enemies and get themselves killed in the crossfire. You can give them general commands, but it's such a hassle it's not worth it, and in any case the combat is easy enough that unless you're a quadruple amputee or you have your grandmother's dachshund playing the game, you'll blast through armies of 453636 robots with perfect ease.

In summary, story-wise it does nothing new and recycles every single Bioware cliche shamelessly (down to the same character stereotypes: one of the characters is voiced by the same guy who did Carth Onasi and, wouldn't you know it, he's also a romantic interest for female PCs and has exactly the same personality as Carth. You also get the token slightly-naive alien, the mystical blue chick who belongs to a race that's basically elves without the pointy ears and the raaarrrr warlike mercenary, ala Canderous Wrex Black Whirlwind). Amazingly, characterization is even thinner than before, with scarce dialogue and backstory from each joinable NPC--less, even, than in Jade Empire. Gameplay wise it is nothing special, the inventory is a clusterfuck from hell, there is level-scaling so you'll never lose, and Bioware sucks at optimizing the engine (your characters will often to be wearing untextured blob because the game takes a while to load armor textures).

On top of all that, it uses SecuRom. Garbage gameplay, garbage writing, godawful DRM: a trifecta of fail if ever there was one.

 

[Thaurin]

"Actually, all sci-fi and fantasy works like this."

Yeah, alright. You should take that as "most sci-fi and fantasy works like this" and does just fine with it. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, Farscape

*chokes* You mean you actually watch that crap!? I do enjoy Battlestar Galactica (new series) and I'm finishing season 4, but it went down the drain fast somewhere half through the third season. Firefly and Farscape, though... are just painful to watch. Good riddance.

On top of all that, it uses SecuRom. Garbage gameplay, garbage writing, godawful DRM: a trifecta of fail if ever there was one.

And still, I enjoyed it more than most games in recent times. I've learned not to expect perfection from all entertainment I consume. I've never understood why originality and innovation is a requirement in everything new.

But what can you expect from a Shitbox gamer, huh?

 

[Prime Junta]

You're going to be disappointed on a regular basis if you hold all sci-fi up to Dune.

I'm used to it.

Besides, Dune isn't all good -- the writing is rather turgid and humorless. It's the storytelling and the underlying ideas that make it what it is. Dune succeeds where most sci-fi fails, in that it's so very heavily focused on the social and cultural consequences of sci-fi technology. Most sci-fi ends up as, basically, the writer's society with spaceships and rayguns; Dune was the exact opposite -- Tleilaxu, Ixians, Fremen, Great Houses and all.

I'm not sure if Bioware really push for the originality or complexity that you crave. They're "in the box" story-tellers and even Dune is "hero with a thousand faces" all over again. Frank Herbert wrapped it into wonderful ideas like the Holtzman effect devolving weaponry and books are a better medium for ideas than games.

Edit: Actually, I'll change that to "a better medium for ideas than games have become".

Sad but true, that.

 

[Prime Junta]

Oh, I haven't played Mass Effect - is it any good?

It's *some* good. It's not great, but it's not terrible, and it's very solidly BioWare in both the good and the bad ways. It starts with a bang, follows up with a long slog, has the most tedious sidequests ever, and finishes strongly. If the whole game had been up to the standard of the last 25% of it or so, it would've been much better.

It also has the stupidest, laziest loot in any game ever, and brings the pain of inventory management to a whole new level.

I'm not keen to replay it, I didn't finish the DLC, but I am probably going to buy and play the sequel.

 

[Essaliad]

Most sci-fi ends up as, basically, the writer's society with spaceships and rayguns; Dune was the exact opposite -- Tleilaxu, Ixians, Fremen, Great Houses and all.

Yes, this, so much. I think sci-fi and fantasy should be different--in that it should bedazzle, should be fantastic, should not make me go "oh god it's another CHOSEN ONE out to defeat ANCIENT EVIL and I can see the plot from miles away--what do you mean, that was supposed to be a plot twist?" Standard hero's journey or not, Dune has a lot of fascinating ideas and does excellent speculative ecology/anthropology re: Arrakis and Fremen.

Everything after Children of Dune is a long slide downhill, though.

*chokes* You mean you actually watch that crap!? I do enjoy Battlestar Galactica (new series) and I'm finishing season 4, but it went down the drain fast somewhere half through the third season. Firefly and Farscape, though... are just painful to watch. Good riddance.

Even at their worst moments, all three are leagues better than Mass Effect in terms of script, concept, setting, everything. Sorry.

I've learned not to expect perfection from all entertainment I consume. I've never understood why originality and innovation is a requirement in everything new.

I don't know, I expect entertainment I consume not to be mediocre. I guess that's too much to ask. It's not so much requiring originality and innovation. It's the fact that ME is a rehash of every previous Bioware title with only slight variations. Shameless cannibalism is embarrassing.

 

[fatBastard()]

I was going to write something related to the topic but all Essaliad's negativity has completely drained my interest in keeping this topic alive

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I bet he'll call you a whiner now.

 

[Essaliad]

I bet he'll call you a whiner now.

If only your wit matched your persistence, you'd be brilliant! As it is, you're kind of like a very dirty marble buried under tons of mud.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

You are very well trained at saying unpleasant things to others.

Years of practise ?

 

[Essaliad]

What, am I? I thought my comment was pretty tame and a bit lame if anything, because that was all the effort I could bother to expend in response to your dullness. I'm flattered you thought it was a result of long training!

 

[Thaurin]

Even at their worst moments, all three are leagues better than Mass Effect in terms of script, concept, setting, everything. Sorry.

Yeah, sure. I can accept that. However, I still even to this day don't hold games to the same standards as books or even film-making as far as setting and characterization go. I don't think it's fair. The Fallout universe or the writing in Planescape: Torment would pale in comparison to some of the best works of literature. Have you ever read a book based on a game that became a classic? I don't think the media and the technology used is well suited to take on those other types of media. Games do, however, other things very well.

I don't know, I expect entertainment I consume not to be mediocre. I guess that's too much to ask.

I guess it is, or you'll have very little real entertainment to go through, I'd think. Well, maybe not, but you'd have to pick your targets very carefully. However, watching series like Lost, Heroes, Prison Break, etc. I can't help but think to myself that these are just soap operas with another setting. You know what? I don't really care. I take it for what it is: 45 minutes of distraction into another not-very-well-crafted reality. And at the end, I can feel entertained and happy that I watched these actors act out their contrived and illogical roles.

And people call me anal.

 

[Essaliad]

Yeah, sure. I can accept that. However, I still even to this day don't hold games to the same standards as books or even film-making as far as setting and characterization go. I don't think it's fair. The Fallout universe or the writing in Planescape: Torment would pale in comparison to some of the best works of literature. Have you ever read a book based on a game that became a classic? I don't think the media and the technology used is well suited to take on those other types of media. Games do, however, other things very well.

Actually, yes, I do--hold them to the same standards, I mean. Perhaps it's not fair, but even setting aside Fallout/PS:T, I'd put the Witcher's handling of certain motifs (moral ambiguity and racial bigotry) well above that of numerous fantasy books, or even most fantasy books. Even with the dodgy translation. Silent Hill 2 is a tragic psychological horror that does tragedy and psychological horror much better than a great many pieces of genre fiction belonging in the same category. The Longest Journey handles tech-versus-magic conflict and fairly generic tropes (hero's journey and all, even the "feisty strong female heroine" thing) better than similar stories told in other media. Admittedly, I'm straying out of the RPG genre now, but there you go, especially given the increasing emphasis on writing/story in modern games. I'm not even saying all games should put an emphasis on this, and there're many games that can be enjoyed on the basis of, y'know, gameplay. But if you are going to tout strong writing and characters (or that meaningless buzzword, "cinematic". Gag) as your game's strengths--and your gameplay is weak or lackluster--you better damn well deliver.

I guess it is, or you'll have very little real entertainment to go through, I'd think. Well, maybe not, but you'd have to pick your targets very carefully. However, watching series like Lost, Heroes, Prison Break, etc. I can't help but think to myself that these are just soap operas with another setting. You know what? I don't really care. I take it for what it is: 45 minutes of distraction into another not-very-well-crafted reality. And at the end, I can feel entertained and happy that I watched these actors act out their contrived and illogical roles.

I read far more than I watch TV (in fact, I don't watch TV at all; what few shows I followed are all done, or I've already lost interest), and even as we speak, I'm staring at a pile of to-read books in my possession that each sounds quite interesting or--shock of shocks--original. SFF is full of authors willing to try out all sorts of things, from experiments with narrative techniques, alternative history, what-if realities with exploration of identity politics, transfigurative intertextuality, and so many delightful things. I don't lack for decent entertainment as long as I don't seek it in the latest pile of steaming manure that most AAA titles (films, games or novels) are.

 

[Thaurin]

the Witcher's handling of certain motifs [...] Silent Hill 2 is a tragic psychological horror that does tragedy and psychological horror much better than a great many pieces of genre fiction [...] The Longest Journey handles tech-versus-magic conflict and fairly generic tropes (hero's journey and all, even the "feisty strong female heroine" thing) better than similar stories

I see where you're going with those titles and those games did really touch me on an emotional level (well, The Longest Journey). I just think the execution is really hard to pull off in a game. I see games mostly targeting the same things as a book, immersion-wise, but a book has so many more things going for it that a game can never hope to achieve. Effects and cinematics in a movie will be so much better than what is possible in games for a long time. So, it's hard to put down a convincing reality in a game that does not come off as cheap. Complicating things further, a game also has to focus on other aspects and find a balance therein.

I don't lack for decent entertainment as long as I don't seek it in the latest pile of steaming manure that most AAA titles (films, games or novels) are.

And yet, I'm not too proud to admit that sometimes, I want the latest pile of steaming AAA manure. But that's just me.

Going back to Mass Effect, I enjoyed the gameplay much more than most well-received shooters. I enjoyed the RPG aspects of it (dialogue, story) more than most recent RPGs. It will not receive any literary awards, but I enjoyed it. That's important.

 

[aries100]

While we're talking about Mass Effect and sci-fi, space opera and fantasy, has any one of you read, yes read, anything by Ursula K. Le Guin, the grand dame of science fiction? In her books, The left Hand of Darkness and The dispossesed, she examines how a society would be if it were x, yz or x for instance... This just to say that there are sci-fi writers out there who does something original and creative.

Mass Effect is certainly not meant to be original, creative or innovative. It is meant to take all the good (and bad) clichées so abundantly in space opera - and use them all. It is an hommage to space opera; it is simply the good doctors having a blast, remembering their childhood and movie series featuring Flash Gordon, Star Trek, and Star Wars. Nothing else.

I haven't played Mass Effect yet, since my current video card (6600GT) isn't near good enough to play this game; so all I know is from comments and from what I've read on Bioware's ME forums. From I read most people enjoyed the quests on the Citadel, and hated the quest on the planets. Better quests for these uncharted worlds have been mentioned --- as something people have wanted to see in ME2.