Attended a Buddhist lecture/meditation session

[Corwin]

I enjoy fulfilling all those 5 desires!!

 

[JemyM]

Our brains are very binary. I find it to be a human mistake to see desires in an all or nothing situation. The third, and forgotten one, is moderation. Instead of having no money, or constantly strive to have more, have what you need. Instead of celibacy or having sex nonstop, have what you need. Instead of starvation or gluttony, instead of abstaining from alcohol or being an alcoholic, have a drink once in awhile if you want. But whatever you do, keep this in mind. You should control your needs. You shouldn't give them up, neither should you let them control you. If you give them up, you miss the point, if they control you, seek help.

 

[Prime Junta]

Our brains are very binary. I find it to be a human mistake to see desires in an all or nothing situation. The third, and forgotten one, is moderation. Instead of having no money, or constantly strive to have more, have what you need. Instead of celibacy or having sex nonstop, have what you need. Instead of starvation or gluttony, instead of abstaining from alcohol or being an alcoholic, have a drink once in awhile if you want. But whatever you do, keep this in mind. You should control your needs. You shouldn't give them up, neither should you let them control you. If you give them up, you miss the point, if they control you, seek help.

Something like that, actually, is considered to be one of Buddhism's central insights -- it's the Middle Way between excesses of self-mortification and excesses of self-indulgence.

 

[ffbj]

That's part of what the middle way refers too. It's opposites and how to reconcile them. Form and emptiness for instance. Someone above referred to the binary way of thinking, Jemy M, I think. Buddhism is really a science/religion of the mind, both our small mind and our big mind or self-nature, which like the sun is concealed by the clouds of our small mind, or the clear reflection in the pool unrevealved by the choppy waters caused by our desires, likes and dislikes, views of ourselves and the world (false views). So (Chan/Zen) Buddhism is the science/religion of calming the mind to allow the self nature to reveal itself. From my own experience I refer to it as both a science and religion; as a science the basis of inquiry and experimentation, trial and error, and the religious element, ceremony and faith. I might add 'The mountain does not know it is a mountain.'

 

[JemyM]

It's not missing in western philosophy. Heraclitus often expressed himself in paradoxes, like "We both step and do not step in the same rivers. We are and are not." His paradoxes often express abstract middles between two absolutes, that cannot quite be expressed in regular language.

You also find the golden mean in western philosophers. Aristotle used it in his ethics, as example of how a righteous person should behave. The golden mean is similar to Buddha's Middle Way.

 

[ffbj]

Sure, and you also have Socrates, I think with the shadow play and the cave analogy. Which correponds to the Buddhist view of the illusions/shadows that we perceive as real. Not all that familar with western philosophical concepts but there was another one, reductionism, maybe Hiegel. Where all things are reduced to an ultimate nothingness.

 

[Prime Junta]

Another update -- this one a fairly short one.

Zazen is now a part of my daily routine. I sit either in the morning or the evening, sometimes both, depending on circumstances. If I have time, I sit a full half-hour; if not, about twenty minutes or so. In addition, I've been going to the zendo weekly for zazen and teisho (dharma talk, by the Zen master who's in charge of this sangha; that's usually a recording since he's based in Sweden). I've made progress in some ways (I can sit without much trouble for two hours, with a break every 30-40 minutes or so), not so much in others.

It's slow going, but it has had a major effect on my state of mind. I still get the blues from time to time, but it's a far cry from the soul-crushing desolation it has been at its worst. I stress less about stuff at work, and am less annoyed or frustrated or generally pissed off about having to do stuff I don't particularly enjoy. And I spend a great deal less energy on waffling -- both the distance between deliberation and decision, and decision and action, has become a lot shorter. So, for example, I find it easy to go to the gym, clean the kitchen, or do the dishes, instead of finding excuses to put it off.

Reinstalling Windows on my computer had me screaming in helpless rage, though, so I figure that counts as one dharma gate I have yet to pass.

I had my first dokusan (formal interview with the Zen master) today; he's visiting, and we had a late-evening zazen with the opportunity for dokusan. I was very impressed by him; perhaps rather surprisingly, he fit my idea of a Zen master to a T -- imagine an old Max von Sydow playing Yoda, and you've got it mostly, minus the funny grammar and plus a Swedish accent. I was immensely impressed, and got some good advice about my practice to boot.

I'm going to apply for membership with the Helsinki Zen Center, which is going to be the first time I'm a member of a religious organization since I walked out of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland over twenty years ago. I'll also see if I could get meself one of those cool Jedi robes they all wear to zazen.

 

[Arhu]

Thanks for sharing, that sounds all very fascinating.

I'll also see if I could get meself one of those cool Jedi robes they all wear to zazen.

You know what that means, right? We'll want pictures.

 

[ffbj]

Good for you. If things come up pleasant or unpleasant just ignore them. It is good that you have a worthy master, it seems. They do seem to exude this aura of trust, whereas they seem to speak to something, that we may not even be aware of. That is, there is an affect. Also this is a critical time. My advice is don't push too hard. At one time I did that and I never have fully recovered from it.
Plus, I am a bit lazy. In gasho...

 

[Prime Junta]

Could you elaborate? What exactly did you do that did you all that damage?

 

[ffbj]

I sat about 6 sesshins, 4 2 days 1 3 days and 1 7 day, in a year. After that I sort of got burned out. I felt that I was forcing something and eventually I just could not go on. Not to say I did not get some benefit out of all that sitting, this was in addition to my normal sitting schedule. So basically the idea of stiing became a chore, something I really had to force myself to do. Quite suddenly I just fell out of practice. In one sense I had myself to blame as everyones capacity is different, but
when practice becomes forced it can lead to burn out. Just like anything else I suppose.

 

[Prime Junta]

Ouch, that does sound a bit extreme. Thanks for the warning; I'll try not to make that mistake.

Incidentally, there was a thought about this in Suzuki-roshi's Zen Mind that somehow struck me: he said that it's very common especially for Westerners to want to grab it all at once. The way he put it, "it's better to get wet in the mist rather than a downpour." I have some tendency to excess, so I'll definitely keep that warning in mind. I already asked my wife to tell me to slow down if she thinks I'm going too nuts about this.

 

[ffbj]

Yes, but you can go to the other extreme to as I have. Being particularly lazy, and that may even be worse. So again the middle ground is important, but enthusiasm is a natural and good thing. Most last admonisments from dying masters is about not being lazy, none ever say you are trying too hard. Time is short, death is coming, sort of stuff is the usual.

One image, forget from where, is the one where Buddhist practice is described like walking in a fine mist. You do not even realize you are getting wet. I suggest Dogen's "Points to Watch in Buddhist Training" from the Shobogenzo.

Which derived from:
http://www.zenki.com/Keizan01.htm

 

[ffbj]

I should have said that Keizan's recommendations derived from Dogen as he was after Dogen.

 

[JemyM]

Incidentally, there was a thought about this in Suzuki-roshi's Zen Mind that somehow struck me: he said that it's very common especially for Westerners to want to grab it all at once. The way he put it, "it's better to get wet in the mist rather than a downpour." I have some tendency to excess, so I'll definitely keep that warning in mind. I already asked my wife to tell me to slow down if she thinks I'm going too nuts about this.

Initiates aren't introduced to Xenu for a reason.

 

[Prime Junta]

LOL! No, I don't think that's exactly what he meant. AFAIK there aren't any sacred mysteries in Zen. Could be they're just keeping me in the dark, though.

Zazen is rather demanding, and I believe that if you overtrain, much the same thing could happen as when you overtrain at the gym -- you regress rather than progressing and lose your motivation to boot.

 

[Prime Junta]

BTW, that was a quite an impressive text you quoted, ffbj. It's hard to believe it was written in the 13th century -- if you remove the bits about witches and such, it could've been spoken by any modern Zen master.

 

[ffbj]

Yeah. That's a good one. Xenu as in Scientology, I imagine.
And that's what I was getting at the overtraining thing you mentioned. That's why a good teacher is so important. They are like a good doctor who prescribes a certain (good) medicine for a given disease. Once a teacher told me that I should relinquish fantasy and embrace reality. He had me pegged pretty well. But of course if you don't take the prescribed medicine, follow the doctors orders, then you will remain ill, and you can't blame the medicine, which you did not take, nor the doctor who prescribed it.

Devils and witches. Basically forces that view Buddhist followers with antipathy and attempt to dissuade/deflect them from the path, even your own thoughts, actions, could in some ways be described thus. One for example:
Papiyas.
http://www.popanime.net/megami/wiki/index.php?title=Dairoku_Tenmaou

 

[Prime Junta]

Speaking of that -- in dokusan, after I told the teacher what I was doing and what was happening, he told me to change my practice in a certain relatively small and simple way. The effect was dramatic -- my zazen became immediately much more focused, although also a lot more difficult. The interesting thing is that I had tried that practice last summer, after having read about it in a book, and at that time it didn't do much for me at all.

IOW, I get the impression that the teacher knows what he's talking about.

 

[ffbj]

One tendency we all seem to have is that we want to keep track of our progress.
The old Ed Koch 'How am I doing'? mentality. I remember one guy who came to the zendo and stated: 'I want results.' I knew then and there that I would never see that guy again. So if practice seems to be going well don't get too excited by that, and also vice versa. If it seems you are stuck and nothing seems to be working don't get depressed by that either. I think one thing I read somewhere about this refrerred to being kind to people. If you are more friendly, just in general more empathetic, in your everday life then that is a sign the practice is taking hold.
There is also a story, when isn't there, that relates:

Master: What are you doing?
Monk: I am on an endless pilgrimage. ed.(I am following the way)
Master: What is the nature of this pilgrimage?
Monk: I know not.
Master: Not knowing is the most intimate.

Later Dogen commented: 'Knowing is also the most intimate.'