Avadon - Released on iPad

[GhanBuriGhan]

Even you, Skaven?So let me see: His games were priced fairly while he was just on the PC, where the average game is $50. His game is also fairly priced at the iStore where the average game is $1.99. Somehow that now makes his PC/Mac game unfairly priced and he has to make it cheaper, or offer free bonuses (extra work) to make it "fair" again. Effectively you are saying hr can't be on these two differently priced markets while being profitable in both. Ignoring the fact that the choice of platform (as well as to buy or not at all) is entirely your choice.

 

[skavenhorde]

Yep, even me. Sorry, but I don't like it. It's just my feeling on the situation, but not to worry I'm not that passionate about this. I just think it sucks that he dropped his price for a different platform. I know he had to do it, but he could also have done something more for the PC version.

I have always supported his $25 price point. Hell I would have paid more, but going down to ten bucks for another platform….no, he needs to offer something more for the PC version. Come on, you can't see this? Throw us PC users a bone and justify such a price difference by giving us something a little different. Not huge, but something like a few free mini-expansions for the PC version only. Hell it might even convince some of his new iPad fans to buy the PC version as well. It seems like a simple solution for this problem.

BTW, I still plan on buying Avadon for the PC. This in no way has changed my mind on that. I just wish he would offer something a little different for us who will pay more for the PC version other than we'll get THE PC VERSION.

 

[Galaad]

Just to throw in my 2 cents... I think the price point is fair, as a business it likely wouldn't be viable to sell it above 10$ on the App Store. It isn't any worse (as someone already stated) than the crazy rebates you see on steam when people a day before paid the full price.

It seems that its always love or hate with Apple heh, people sure get extreme about it. I'm definitely not a big fan of the company and don't like their attitude in general. But hey, I've got an Iphone and an Ipad and they're both great devices. I can recognise that much. One of the main things I love about it is how it allows a lot of indie developers to reach me easily, and make it viable for them to publish their products (as far as I can tell anyway).

Similar to what Badesmofu said, I'm a bit saddened and surprised not to see more people being glad that good rpgs and "old-school" games are thriving on this platform at a time when they can hardly survive on PC.

G.

P.S.
I grabbed Avadon for the Ipad and the touch interface seems to work perfectly with the game. Loving it so far!

 

[HiddenX]

Different markets - different prices -> it is really so easy.

For example I'm working for the biggest german pharmacy company.

Our prices for the same products range from incredible high in Germany and the U.S. to very low in China.

Is it fair - no.
Do the company, shareholders and employees make a living with it - yes.

 

[skavenhorde]

Then make it fair by offering something more for the PC/MAC. Simple and easy solution.

I'm talking, of course, about this game and not some other product being sold in different regions.

You guys do know that there is such a thing as a collectors edition for most of the more popular games out there? You pay more for a game and receive some extra goodies. Do that for the PC version. Throw in an extra character class or a few more sidequests or whatever.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Then make it fair by offering something more for the PC/MAC. Simple and easy solution.

I'm talking, of course, about this game and not some other product being sold in different regions.

You guys do know that there is such a thing as a collectors edition of most of the more popular games out there? You pay more for a game and receive some extra goodies. Do that for the PC version. Throw in an extra character class or a few more sidequests or whatever.

I don't see how he could do that (assuming we are talking something substantial) and stay profitable. Effectively its the same as lowering the price, and he has explained why he does not do that. Also if the price was fair before, why has that changed? If anything, you now have a chance to get his game cheaper - if you own an iPad. I am surprised by all the outrage really. Did anybody seriously expect he would sell it for $25 at the AppStore? Thats impossible, the way that market works. Did annybody expect him to lower his PC prices? He has explained the reasons fo his prices. Whars so hard to accept here?

 

[skavenhorde]

I'll quote myself

Edit: If some of you think it is too much to ask for a free mini-expansion then may I direct your attention to a developer who did it, Vic Davis. He offered not one, but two free little expansion packs for Armageddon Empires. They weren't huge, but they did offer a few new things each time and he offered them without asking anything in return.

If Vogel did something like that for the PC version of Avadon then that would go a long way towards justifying a price difference in the two different versions. At least it would for me.

And since I'm not really that passionate about this and have said basically the same thing over and over again, while you guys say the same thing over and over again then I think I'm done here. I'm not that outraged, annoyed and pissed yes, outraged….ehhh not really. I should expect the PC (and now MAC) to get the short end of the stick.

I will leave you with this. It is "basically" the same exact game for a much lower price. I don't care about the reasoning behind it. All I know is that I will pay 25 dollars for the same game that I could get on the iPad for ten bucks. Is it too much to ask that it be a little different than the iPad version? Is that going too far? In my opinion it is not and it is the very least he could do to make up for such a huge price difference.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I agree this is going nowhere. I do concur that your view is maybe widespread enough that it represents a potential problem for Spiderweb, even if I think that its based more in psychology than in a real problem. Just this: I think you will have to get used to it, just like we have gotten used to prices being different between consoles and PC. Just a few examples:

World of Goo PC: $20; World of Goo iStore: 3.30CHF (5.50CHF HD version)
Undercroft PC: $19.90; Undercroft iPhone: free
Puzzle Quest 2 PC: $19.90; iStore: 5.50CHf.
(iStore prices in Swiss Francs, because thats where I live. 1CHF = $1.18)

It's not as if Vogel has done anything outrageously new here. These price differences have long been a reality.

 

[Daddy32]

Jesus, Skavenhorde, thanks.
Being called apple-hating fanboy of whatever with "disappointing attitude" just because I think its utterly unfair to be asked for $25, while the same experience can be had for $10....

 

[holeraw]

If I decide to buy Avadon the 25 dollars are certainly not going to stop me but I would imagine I would be a little upset if if owned an iPad and still only wanted to play this on the pc. I understand the arguments but frankly I find them irrelevant to my relation with the game. I don't care about the difference of markets and I don't care if mr. Vogel's business is viable or not, I have enough problems sustaining a viable business for myself to be concerned about his, all I care about is the quality of the product he's offering and the price I have to pay for it.

That said, personally I think he should have found a less crude solution than just offering the same thing for such different price. Even the free mini-expansion or an extra class doesn't sound enough to me - those things function well as little 'thank you' gifts for people for choose to pay considerably more for some games -on the same platform- in order to support the developer and their whole point is to be subtle enough so that those who pay the 'cheap' price won't need them. I think a completely different game would be better - perhaps a series of 2 or 3 games less than half the size of Avadon on the iPad and then maybe sold bundled together on the pc.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Jesus, Skavenhorde, thanks.
Being called apple-hating fanboy of whatever with "disappointing attitude" just because I think its utterly unfair to be asked for $25, while the same experience can be had for $10….

You can have it for $0 on the PC. He has a money back guarantee: Buy it, play the shit out of it, tell him you weren't satisfied and find his pricing attitude horrible, and get your money back.

 

[skavenhorde]

Jesus, Skavenhorde, thanks.
Being called apple-hating fanboy of whatever with "disappointing attitude" just because I think its utterly unfair to be asked for $25, while the same experience can be had for $10….

No problem. I'm wouldn't call it an "Apple" vs PC thing anyways since the Mac is getting the shaft as well. How did people forget that Mac was an Apple product too?

@GhanBuriGhan

I can get Undercroft for free for iPhone? That is ridiculous.

I had forgotten that Undercroft was available for the PC. At the very least I learned something worthwhile today. Thanks Ghan.

 

[Dean]

It's hypocrisy saying that your games are worth $25.00 and then selling them for $10.00.

 

[DArtagnan]

What difference does it make whether or not Avadon is defined as "mainstream" by you, or other people on the board?

It's nice that you can join the debate - instead of pretending to be above having an opinion.

It makes no more difference than you or others calling it hardcore.

But again, I'm not calling it mainstream - I said "mainstream indie" which is a harsh term, I agree, but obviously it's not MAINSTREAM mainstream. It's still a niche product for a niche audience.

The direction, however, is supremely obvious - for all but the most deluded.

It's been getting good reviews as a fun RPG. The level of graphics, game detail, story size, etc., is entirely supportable for the platform, as is the touch interface. The next iPad will presumably be even more powerful and have a larger capacity. In 2011, why should you have to open a seven-pound laptop with a relatively short battery life if you want to play a Vogel RPG on an airplane, for instance?

Point being?

I have nothing against an iPad version or Apple products on a personal level. This is in your head - just as it's in TXA's head.

At some point, things move forward and technology changes. I'd rather this guy forge ahead and make money making his kind of RPGs on an iPad platform than try to keep making these games over and over for PCs that have light years more processing power than necessary.

Certainly.

I just find it tasteless that he can't just be fully upfront about it. That's because I prefer the no-bullshit approach.

He wants more money - and THAT is his motivation behind all this.

NOTHING wrong with that, and LOTS of people want more money.

Just don't pretend there's anything more to it. That's what I think is tasteless.

If you've followed his blogs, I think it's pretty damn obvious that there's a fundamental change in his approach to development and platform releases.

If he can't even see the change himself, I have to say he's delusional.

 

[DArtagnan]

It's hypocrisy saying that your games are worth $25.00 and then selling them for $10.00.

That's exactly what it is, hence my reaction.

 

[DArtagnan]

He has judged it all and is of course correct about everything as always and will argue until you get tired and by being last he is de facto correct. As usual.

Completely unlike what you're doing, right?

You've lost it with this whole Apple thing, txa.

I like you and appreciate your input in a general way, but it's getting REALLY tiresome listening to you rant on and on about "anti-Apple" rabid lunatics.

I don't LOVE the platform, ok? I think it has its good points and its bad points. I don't think it's a good platform for the kind of game I prefer - though I think the iPad 2 is pretty close to being a decent one for certain games, Avadon included.

I think Apple - at least since the iPod Touch/iPhone - make pretty impressive products. They have great interfaces and they understand design. I don't like how locked their platforms are - but then, I've never liked that about any of their products. I like to mess around with my stuff and customize it until I feel satisfied. Apple won't allow that, so naturally I can't fully appreciate their products. I also don't appreciate their prices - as they're too high for what they offer, compared to the alternatives. EXCEPT the iPad - which has no real competitor.

For smartphones - I think the Galaxy S2 phone is superior - totally superior - and it's cheaper. Sadly, the Android market is a joke in comparison.

Sounds particularly rabid to you? I can argue my case and I have reasons for my opinions. I'm NOT religious and I don't get emotional over gadgets.

So, could you drop that shit already?

I don't know what kind of experience you've had with Apple-hating people, but if you can't stop to consider things for a bit - before you go on your rants, you've got an issue I think you should be dealing with first.

 

[txa1265]

He needs to offer some free mini-expansion packs or something to make up the difference between the iPad game and the PC game if he wants to keep selling the PC version for $25 dollars.

No, he doesn't. He needs to deliver games on the PC & Mac that justify the $25 price. For some in this thread he meets that bar, for others not.

I also plan on getting the iPad 2 (or 3 if the rumors are correct) and think that it is a fun little gimmick.

If you think of the iPad as a 'toy', that is half the problem. It is as useful (or not useful) as pretty much any powerful computing device. I have broader use for my iPad than from my Alienware laptop, which is gaming-only.

If Vogel did something like that for the PC version of Avadon then that would go a long way towards justifying a price difference in the two different versions. At least it would for me.

No, it wouldn't. Because aside from the underlying anti-Apple angle of most here (in the defense of PC RPG, just to be clear), there is also a broad sense of entitlement. Vogel could arrange a month of oral sex for everyone who bought the Mac or PC version, and people would be bashing him for it not being two months, and those who bought more than one game think they should get twice as much as those who only bought one, and so on. Spoiled. Rotten. Entitled. Brats.

- When Fable: The Lost Chapters for PC arrived for $40 with more content compared to the $50 Fable for XBOX, what did those who bought the original get?
- When Square Enix released Final Fantasy I & II for iPhone at $9.99 while they sold for $29.99 for PSP, what did PSP owners get?
- Last month when Square Enix released Final Fantasy III for iPad at $16.99 while it sold for $34.99 for DS, what did DS owners get?
... etc.

 

[DArtagnan]

No, he doesn't. He needs to deliver games on the PC & Mac that justify the $25 price. For some in this thread he meets that bar, for others not.

He just shoved it into the faces of his fans that it DOESN'T justify a 25$ price. He himself doesn't think so. The market decides, apparently.

It's not about what fans would pay for it, because they have no choice. They want the game, they pay the price - whether it's 10, 25, or 40. Some will not - but it has NOTHING to do with actual value, because Vogel just made that painfully clear.

He made it clear that all his previous arguments about charging more was bullshit, as it actually has NOTHING to do with value, but with profit. It's all about marketing considerations. So his song and dance about giving people deep and long experiences worth 25$ is worth exactly nothing.

If we want the iPad 2 as a serious gaming platform, why would developers set their prices so low? They're doing as much work converting it to that platform as they do from Mac to PC, right?

Oh, again, it's about wanting the most money - and it has NOTHING to do with value.

Fair enough, actually. But let's just be frank, Vogel, ok?

If you think of the iPad as a 'toy', that is half the problem. It is as useful (or not useful) as pretty much any powerful computing device. I have broader use for my iPad than from my Alienware laptop, which is gaming-only.

Have you considered that some people aren't exactly like you, and that for SOME people an iPad 2 is an expensive luxury item?

You don't get to decide what such a device is for other people.

No, it wouldn't. Because aside from the underlying anti-Apple angle of most here (in the defense of PC RPG, just to be clear), there is also a broad sense of entitlement. Vogel could arrange a month of oral sex for everyone who bought the Mac or PC version, and people would be bashing him for it not being two months, and those who bought more than one game think they should get twice as much as those who only bought one, and so on. Spoiled. Rotten. Entitled. Brats.

Explain to me how I can feel entitled about a game I don't own and don't want to own? How can I feel entitled about it?

Also, the anti-Apple angle is YOUR perception, which you have yet to prove. I guess everyone is an anti-Apple raving lunatic if they don't see the immense power and use of the iPad 2, right?

- When Fable: The Lost Chapters for PC arrived for $40 with more content compared to the $50 Fable for XBOX, what did those who bought the original get- When Square Enix released Final Fantasy I & II for iPhone at $9.99 while they sold for $29.99 for PSP, what did PSP owners get?
- Last month when Square Enix released Final Fantasy III for iPad at $16.99 while it sold for $34.99 for DS, what did DS owners get?
… etc.

No one is under the slightest illusion that Square Enix and Microsoft aren't in this business for the money.

Some people, however, thought Vogel was different - and that having the TOTAL control over his own pricing would make him consider his loyal fans, even without any entitlement on their part.

 

[txa1265]

Also, the anti-Apple angle is YOUR perception, which you have yet to prove. I guess everyone is an anti-Apple raving lunatic if they don't see the immense power and use of the iPad 2, right?

*every* thread involving an Apple product on this site invariably becomes about the platform, with people from Admins on down being fundamentally negative about the Mac, Apple, the operating system, mobile devices, and so on.

QED.

 

[DArtagnan]

*every* thread involving an Apple product on this site invariably becomes about the platform, with people from Admins on down being fundamentally negative about the Mac, Apple, the operating system, mobile devices, and so on.

QED.

Some people are anti-Apple - that's for sure.

But does that make it "ok" to accuse everyone?

I think you're right that a FEW people here are "anti-Apple" without any rational explanation or reason. But I suspect many are simply not in agreement with you, and maybe that's ok?

In any case, you're never going to convince anyone that Apple make fantastic products by calling those who don't agree rabid anti-Apple people.

It's not productive.

I don't call you a slobbering Apple fan, do I? You certainly seem incredibly defensive about the whole thing - but I still give you the benefit of the doubt, and I realise your way of life may be different from mine. In this way, you might actually get a lot of use out of those products that I don't personally see as "special".