Bard's Tale IV - Here Comes MCA

[Hastar]

txa1265 said good and very good games so it seems even he has some issues with these newer games. He did not say every game in the last few years is a perfect 10. I am also happy with the number of games being released because it means I should at least enjoy some of them very much. 10 years ago there was not even many RPG's to sample.

 

[txa1265]

So, because the past was terrible for this kind of RPG, we can't have issues with those that exist in the present without being petty?

Sounds like terrible logic to me.

I guess you're the sort of person who thinks we should all be grateful that we're not slaves, because that's how some people used to live?

Not at all what I was trying to say ...

I was just musing out loud that it is pretty great that we have the luxury of not just complaining about given studios, writers, sub-genres and whatever ... we also get loads of great games in all of those areas, and are arguably in a real 'PC RPG Golden Age' ... whatever that means

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't state our opinions on things - my review back when Oblivion came out was none too kind, picking apart all of the crap that suddenly occurred to people when Fallout 3 was approaching. But at the time, my failure to give the game a 5/5 was met with hostility - people basically said 'PC is dead, you should be happy just to get ANYTHING and should give high reviews to encourage people to keep writing'.

Wrong ... we are critical to push good people to do better. And to remind publishers that our expectations are based on quality standards, not begging for more crap.

 

[DArtagnan]

txa1265 said good and very good games so it seems even he has some issues with these newer games. He did not say every game in the last few years is a perfect 10. I am also happy with the number of games being released because it means I should at least enjoy some of them very much. 10 years ago there was not even many RPG's to sample.

Do you agree it's possible to be pleased that there are more quality RPGs coming out while having issues with certain aspects of them?

I've never played a game that couldn't have been improved - and I don't see any sense in not pointing out how that could happen. I don't see the whole being petty angle.

I don't think an exchange consisting of people agreeing that everything is great would be productive or interesting. Not even a little bit.

I do see an angle where some people like what they're hearing about Bard's Tale 4 - and when others don't, they're somehow petty people.

As for Chris look-at-my-sophisticated-vocabulary Avellone being such an expensive addition to a game that REALLY doesn't seem like it needs his particular desperately verbose style of writing. I don't see any upside to that - except more PR bullshit.

To me, it seems we're making rockstars out of these deliverers of mediocrity - and their names alone make everything they're involved with great, just because they were once part of visionary games.

That's just my opinion, though.

For the record, I don't think the amount of quality RPGs coming out means that much. The vast majority of these titles are attempted clones of the ancient past and especially Wasteland 2 was underwhelming when compared to Fallout which is almost 20 years old.

I know some people are excited for this kind of game coming out again, but it doesn't mean there's any kind of evolution involved. Quite the opposite if you're to be honest about it.

 

[DArtagnan]

Not at all what I was trying to say …

I was just musing out loud that it is pretty great that we have the luxury of not just complaining about given studios, writers, sub-genres and whatever … we also get loads of great games in all of those areas, and are arguably in a real 'PC RPG Golden Age' … whatever that means

I don't agree it's a golden age - but the road has been opened to make it possible, and that's pleasing.

But I'm far from convinced we're going to see it any time soon. It still takes boldness, vision and a hungry talent to make great games - and most of the ones we're talking about don't seem to indicate anything of the sort. But that's just my opinion.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't state our opinions on things - my review back when Oblivion came out was none too kind, picking apart all of the crap that suddenly occurred to people when Fallout 3 was approaching. But at the time, my failure to give the game a 5/5 was met with hostility - people basically said 'PC is dead, you should be happy just to get ANYTHING and should give high reviews to encourage people to keep writing'.

Wrong … we are critical to push good people to do better. And to remind publishers that our expectations are based on quality standards, not begging for more crap.

Then why on Earth would you call these exchanges petty? Couldn't you have used a better word?

 

[txa1265]

Then why on Earth would you call these exchanges petty? Couldn't you have used a better word?

(literally LOL) ... I'm not sure I could have chosen worse

And there is a reason I put the golden age thing in quotes, not my term for it. Pretty happy with what is out there, but my game play time and focus is very different than 5 or 10 years ago so I am not remotely objective.

 

[DArtagnan]

(literally LOL) … I'm not sure I could have chosen worse

And there is a reason I put the golden age thing in quotes, not my term for it. Pretty happy with what is out there, but my game play time and focus is very different than 5 or 10 years ago so I am not remotely objective.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[crpgnut]

txa, have Chris Avellone pick some words that mean petty but have several more syllables and require a paragraph of text to explain. The only person more verbose in pointing out his ideas than DArt is Avellone.

 

[Hastar]

Do you agree it's possible to be pleased that there are more quality RPGs coming out while having issues with certain aspects of them?

I've never played a game that couldn't have been improved - and I don't see any sense in not pointing out how that could happen. I don't see the whole being petty angle.

I don't think an exchange consisting of people agreeing that everything is great would be productive or interesting. Not even a little bit.

I do see an angle where some people like what they're hearing about Bard's Tale 4 - and when others don't, they're somehow petty people.

As for Chris look-at-my-sophisticated-vocabulary Avellone being such an expensive addition to a game that REALLY doesn't seem like it needs his particular desperately verbose style of writing. I don't see any upside to that - except more PR bullshit.

To me, it seems we're making rockstars out of these deliverers of mediocrity - and their names alone make everything they're involved with great, just because they were once part of visionary games.

That's just my opinion, though.

For the record, I don't think the amount of quality RPGs coming out means that much. The vast majority of these titles are attempted clones of the ancient past and especially Wasteland 2 was underwhelming when compared to Fallout which is almost 20 years old.

I know some people are excited for this kind of game coming out again, but it doesn't mean there's any kind of evolution involved. Quite the opposite if you're to be honest about it.

Bards Tale was the second crpg I ever finished after Wizardry. This is a 100% nostalgic buy for me. I also enjoyed Wasteland 2 very much so they get my business again.

I also have never played a game that is perfect and you can always improve in certain areas. I think the hardest question to answer in this hobby would be, What is the most perfect crpg you ever played? Perfect is impossible to achieve and is like hunting for shangri la.

 

[txa1265]

txa, have Chris Avellone pick some words that mean petty but have several more syllables and require a paragraph of text to explain. The only person more verbose in pointing out his ideas than DArt is Avellone.

I don't know ... those DW Bradley walls o'text from Dungeon Lords are pretty epic as well

 

[DArtagnan]

Bards Tale was the second crpg I ever finished after Wizardry. This is a 100% nostalgic buy for me. I also enjoyed Wasteland 2 very much so they get my business again.

I also have never played a game that is perfect and you can always improve in certain areas. I think the hardest question to answer in this hobby would be, What is the most perfect crpg you ever played? Perfect is impossible to achieve and is like hunting for shangri la.

I don't think striving for perfection is the same as hunting perfection.

That is key.

 

[Bedwyr]

I don't agree it's a golden age - but the road has been opened to make it possible, and that's pleasing.

But I'm far from convinced we're going to see it any time soon. It still takes boldness, vision and a hungry talent to make great games - and most of the ones we're talking about don't seem to indicate anything of the sort. But that's just my opinion.

Consider me new to both you and your standards. I'll admit I'm pretty turned off by how quick you are to dismiss games I enjoy with something more than the usual "everyone's tastes are different". I'll also admit that, maybe unfairly, you come across to me as a know-it-all. Maybe it's unintentional and maybe it's just your rhetorical habits, but are you actually arguing from a basis of some kind of authority?

If you are I'd like to challenge your authority in the future and ask you defend your generalizations with some hard defenses. I apologize if you've done this before for the others here and I don't mean this with outright hostility, but your bearing comes across with a lot of swagger. If nothing else, it warrants a few challenges and at least a clearing-of-the-air.

I'm happy to be shouted down if this has all been done before, but man do you come across as arrogant. I work in engineering research and people who do that kind of thing get lopped off at the knees pretty quick (believe me, I learned pretty quick after a weak conference paper I gave once; boy did I learn). They learn to be small with their claims and large with their evidence and data sets. I'm not in industrial or game design, but even with the vagaries of taste I understand that you have come armed with a hell of a lot of facts and evidence to back your shit up. Mostly what I see from you is sweeping and dismissive generalizations.

This is by no means a "come at me bro", but definitely a "where in the world are you coming from?" bewilderment. Again I'll happily back down and get back in line if this is just me and everyone is already happy with "oh that's just how d'Artagnon argues".

 

[Sacred_Path]

another one bites the DArt

 

[HiddenX]

Kicktraq lists Bard's Tale IV trending to $1,843,713 right now.
I think with the usual late run they'll go over $1,900,000.

 

[Pessimeister]

As for Chris look-at-my-sophisticated-vocabulary Avellone being such an expensive addition to a game that REALLY doesn't seem like it needs his particular desperately verbose style of writing. I don't see any upside to that - except more PR bullshit.

If I didn't know any better, one could perhaps detect a hint of jealousy there!

Also, your statement appears to not take into consideration the following:

1) Chris would not be joining the InXile team solely for his writing skill; I'd suggest that his veteran experience as a core game designer would also come heavily into the fore.

2) A well skilled writer can generally adjust their style and tone to suit a particular audience or need. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was given tasks like this in high school. Thus, the style we are used to seeing from Chris may not be the one we'd see in the Cairn of Horrors. He'd be writing for InXile and the Bard's Tale IP after all.

I'm guessing MCA would be champing at the bit to get his inner bard's tale Dungeon Master hat on and start designing all forms of devious terrors for players to encounter. It'd be any devout fan's/early cRPG designer's dream.

It is definitely a smart card played by Brian. Still, realistically speaking it's a long way to go before we get there yet...

 

[Bedwyr]

another one bites the DArt

That's why I'm happy to back down quickly. Is my response "a thing" already?

 

[txa1265]

That's why I'm happy to back down quickly. Is my response "a thing" already?

... if there was a list of forum tropes, this would be on it ...

 

[Wisdom]

That's why I'm happy to back down quickly. Is my response "a thing" already?

Question : Why do you care what someone else thinks of your taste in anything?

All those articles that state "10 best games since XXXX", "5 games that defined your life.", "The most important thing ever ever ever!" are just freaking opinion clickbait.

How is this converation different.

My favorite game of all time was an old MMO. 90% of people on this forum would instantly write me off as having bad taste. That doesn't change a thing. It'll still be my favorite game. You can't convince me it wasn't. I dont' care what you think was better. If you list games I've never heard of so I can go experience them, that is one thing. But to say... No! X is better than Y!

I think we should all crack our eggs from the skinny side, the Lilliputians agree... All others shall be killed.

 

[RPGFool]

Hmmm… Back on topic… I still remember playing Bards Tale on my Amiga, and just loving it. Back then Bards Tale brought so many new and well implemented game aspects to the table. Sadly that part can't be duplicated at this point. What was new then is old now. You can't un-ring a bell.

Still if characters, guilds,landscapes, etc. are sufficiently developed and interesting, this new Bard's Tale could be intriguing and fun. Newness shouldn't be a requsite for success — after all fictional literature, i.e., novels and short stories have entertained for in excess of a century without huge changes in form, and movies and multimedia can still provide massive enoyment just on the basis of great stories and great acting…

I'm hoping for the best. Nevertheless I'll be pleasantly shocked if it happens.

As to golden ages and the like; no question but that we are not there yet IMO. I do believe that Witcher 3 is pure gold; that Skyrim was gold; that the two recent Fallouts were at least near-gold; but those are AAA games issued over a period of years and it seems to me that development costs will, and have, foreclosed rapid growth rates as would be characteristic of a true golden age.

As for the indie games I agree with the thought that conditions are possibly right for a new golden age there. But the proof there can only be in the pudding. At this point, each new day seems to bring reports of great puddings in the oven. But great new puddings don't seem to be making it to the table at a rate exceeding a trickle, and certainly not a deluge or even a steady stream rate at this point.

Thing about business growth curves though is they're more than a bit like plant growth and animal growth curves (actually mathematically the same). One can't tell just by looking at early stages of growth. A flower just barely pokes a leaf tip out of the soil over a period of many days, but grows many inches over the next bunch of days. Same with the growth rate of animal and human babies… slow at first followed by explosive growth.

Hope that we're in the early stages of the spring of a new RPG golden age. But it's awfully early to say at this point.

__

 

[DArtagnan]

Consider me new to both you and your standards. I'll admit I'm pretty turned off by how quick you are to dismiss games I enjoy with something more than the usual "everyone's tastes are different". I'll also admit that, maybe unfairly, you come across to me as a know-it-all. Maybe it's unintentional and maybe it's just your rhetorical habits, but are you actually arguing from a basis of some kind of authority?

If you are I'd like to challenge your authority in the future and ask you defend your generalizations with some hard defenses. I apologize if you've done this before for the others here and I don't mean this with outright hostility, but your bearing comes across with a lot of swagger. If nothing else, it warrants a few challenges and at least a clearing-of-the-air.

I'm happy to be shouted down if this has all been done before, but man do you come across as arrogant. I work in engineering research and people who do that kind of thing get lopped off at the knees pretty quick (believe me, I learned pretty quick after a weak conference paper I gave once; boy did I learn). They learn to be small with their claims and large with their evidence and data sets. I'm not in industrial or game design, but even with the vagaries of taste I understand that you have come armed with a hell of a lot of facts and evidence to back your shit up. Mostly what I see from you is sweeping and dismissive generalizations.

This is by no means a "come at me bro", but definitely a "where in the world are you coming from?" bewilderment. Again I'll happily back down and get back in line if this is just me and everyone is already happy with "oh that's just how d'Artagnon argues".

Can't we just say I'm arrogant and leave it be, then? I really don't have the stamina for this for the zillionth time someone can't handle differing preferences, and all will become clear in time.

 

[DArtagnan]

If I didn't know any better, one could perhaps detect a hint of jealousy there!

Also, your statement appears to not take into consideration the following:

1) Chris would not be joining the InXile team solely for his writing skill; I'd suggest that his veteran experience as a core game designer would also come heavily into the fore.

2) A well skilled writer can generally adjust their style and tone to suit a particular audience or need. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was given tasks like this in high school. Thus, the style we are used to seeing from Chris may not be the one we'd see in the Cairn of Horrors. He'd be writing for InXile and the Bard's Tale IP after all.

I'm guessing MCA would be champing at the bit to get his inner bard's tale Dungeon Master hat on and start designing all forms of devious terrors for players to encounter. It'd be any devout fan's/early cRPG designer's dream.

It is definitely a smart card played by Brian. Still, realistically speaking it's a long way to go before we get there yet…

If I was the jealous type, I think I'd be envious of someone I admired instead

I don't disagree that it's a smart choice in PR terms.

As for him adjusting his writing style, that's something I haven't seen much of from him, which is perhaps my problem with it. Mostly because I don't like his writing style.

That doesn't mean he's not a great writer - I just don't see it, personally.