BioShock - Pitch Documents

[JemyM]

Hey, I had a great and original idea. Let's debate what qualifies as an RPG.

I have played pnp RPG's since the 80-ies and I still play. D&D originated as a strategy-game variant. Most of the early titles followed this design. Compared with a real rpg this is more about a computer game with the rpg mechanics than an actual rpg. Ultima I for example contains no roleplaying whatsoever, it's more about a strategy/simulation in which you build up a character with goods and points, like you build a city in Sim City. The Sims is more of a RPG than Ultima is. I have actually on a gamecon played a scenario called "dinner talk" that dealt with the psychology of family members in a traditional family debate. I have played plenty of roleplaying sessions that were psychologal experiments rather than a game with dice and numbers. This was especially popular in the 90'ies when the World of Darkness series glorified "storytelling" as a buzzword. This was rpg gourmet, where rpg became artwork like a theatre than a strategy game.

So to me Bioshock have RPG mechanics. It include choices (not advanced but still) it also have skills and specialization. It's not the "gold box" but where exactly is the RPG there? I only see a strategy game.

Lets take F3 too then. Much of the complaints was that the battle interface, the turnbased tactical/strategy gameplay was removed. So did that in any way remove the RPG? No. F3 was a weaker rpg than F1/F2, but I do not think I exaggerate if I claim it's one of the most RPG-game for the last five years. It have character building beyond stats, your personality is an integrated part of the game. Excluding D&D/d20 titles, care to give me a list of recent RPG's in which abilities and skills affect dialogue?

I think you should be more concerned about covering Diablo III and Titan Quest than Bioshock.

 

[Dhruin]

@Craig: there are websites out there catering to the hardcore sports-car crowd; NMA and the Codex, for example. Why make another one.

RPG Codex doesn't meet Craig's requirements. They currently have a newsbit about Fable 3, and Fable 3 isn't an RPG. We've already established news = promotion, ergo the Codex endorses the dilution of the genre. I presume Craig has written similar complaints in the Codex comments, since we know he reads that site as well.

Edit: removed some unnecessary stuff.

You ask me to define a genre that has been being deliberately bastardized and exploited for marketing purposes for more than 20 years. Nobody even bothered trying to define the genre in the 1980s and early 1990s because everyone knew an RPG when they saw it, and no-one had any motivation to lie about what kind of game they were making. I think people STILL know an RPG when they see it.

Yeah, that looks like a lot of dancing around the subject to me. Here's what I think: if we critically examine many of those older "we know they're RPGs because we just know", we'll find they struggle to fit a bona fide RPG definition.

Beyond that, we disagree on many points. Newsbits don't equal promotion. Newsbits can provide a discussion point for people like you to influence others through conversation, thus supporting the genre the way you want. The ongoing expansion of the market makes grognards an increasingly small and irrelevant percentage of buyers, so "refusing to accept" genre changes is meaningless in influencing game producers. Shooter/RPGs are a valid sub-genre, even if you don't like them. People play RPGs (even the old "pure" ones) for different reasons, so they think different games are "more" or "less RPG" for varying reasons.

By the way, why did you buy Numen? I don't understand why someone with your views buys a hack'n'slasher.

 

[JemyM]

I think it have to be said though that mmo-rpg players are lesser beings than regular human beings.

 

[pibbur]

Yes. I am a mmo-rpg player, and I can confirm JemyM's view.

Despite measuring 191 cm (height, not width!).

 

[Aditya]

CraigCWB needs to STFU.

There ARE people interested in reading newsbits about RPG-lites such as SS2, BioShock, even Fable. Just 'coz close minded people like him have dislike towards certain games, displaying hysteria about BioShock news posting n accusing RPGWatch of becoming watered down is plain ridiculous.

Apart from posting about AAA RPG titles, Dhruin n team is doing an admirable job of tracking so many obscure Indie RPG titles that I never knew even existed. In between all of this, if they are giving basic info about RPG-lite titles (and is this case, actually a rather interesting one regarding BioShock), I don't know whats there to whine about so badly...

So, CraigCWB just needs to STFU.

 

[DArtagnan]

It's amusing that Craig seems to think RPGWatch needs a reason to exist that he can appreciate or comprehend.

It's as if he was under the impression that his endorsement mattered, in some way relevant to whether this site was justified or not

 

[CraigCWB]

So, this is where all the malicious mental midgets from usenet came to hang out! Good to know

Well, speaking only for myself... I think I'm going to be cutting way back on my reading of this website. There's not much to set it apart from more big-name websites, as far as I can tell. You can't claim to be servicing a niche market and try to cater to the mainstream at the same time. This is exactly what went wrong with the RPG genre and it's happening on this website too. Means, this website is part of the problem. So... eh... have fun with that

 

[DArtagnan]

So, this is where all the malicious mental midgets from usenet came to hang out! Good to know

Well, speaking only for myself… I think I'm going to be cutting way back on my reading of this website. There's not much to set it apart from more big-name websites, as far as I can tell. You can't claim to be servicing a niche market and try to cater to the mainstream at the same time. This is exactly what went wrong with the RPG genre and it's happening on this website too. Means, this website is part of the problem. So… eh… have fun with that

Malicious mental midgets?

Haha, well - ok then.

Anyway, have fun whereever you end up - and good luck trying to convince people they should cater to you, with your fanatical idea of what the RPG genre should be, as if you were somehow more deserving than the mainstream

 

[Prime Junta]

So, this is where all the malicious mental midgets from usenet came to hang out! Good to know

Yep. You'll fit in just fine, I'm sure.

Well, speaking only for myself… I think I'm going to be cutting way back on my reading of this website.

You'll be missed. I checked the posts you've made here, and your enthusiasm, can-do spirit, ideas, and general affability will be a sad loss.

There's not much to set it apart from more big-name websites, as far as I can tell. You can't claim to be servicing a niche market and try to cater to the mainstream at the same time. This is exactly what went wrong with the RPG genre and it's happening on this website too. Means, this website is part of the problem. So… eh… have fun with that

Part of the problem since 1971, and proud of it!

 

[JemyM]

And now you guys made me feel like a jerk for contributing to this thread.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yes. That's our purpose in life.

 

[Julius]

So, CraigCWB just needs to STFU.

I registred exclusively to endorse this fine proposal.

I can understand his general sentiment but the tone he uses is just… well, he sounds like the kind of guy who knows what's what and is willing to remind you about that on a regular basis. Personally I don't know a lot so I like to have those kind of people around me to direct my judgement with their impressive and far-reaching wisdom, but unfortunately it doesn't make for very good conversations.

 

[pibbur]

@CraigCWB: I'm not sure what you expected.

This site has been around for years. I'm only a regular member, but as far as I see it, RPGwatch has never been about saving the RPG genre, or defining precisely what an RPG IS. It's a site for information about RPG's/games with RPG's elements, and a place for discussing these games in a mostly friendly and mature athmosphere. OCCASIONALLY other games are covered. In addition we have discussions about other things, jokes, music, whatever.

Then you come around, little more than a month ago. And want us to be something else, something we've never pretended to be? And you expect to be taken seriously?

 

[Prime Junta]

So, that's settled then. Pibbur, will you get the tar? I've got an old pillow for the feathers.

(Well, not strictly feathers, actually. It's some kind of bran, I think.)

 

[CraigCWB]

@CraigCWB: I'm not sure what you expected.

I expected a site about RPGs. It says "RPG Watch" up there, right? Maybe if there were more actual RPGs being made then this crew wouldn't need to stretch quite so much to find stuff to talk about.

It's a site for information about RPG's/games with RPG's elements, and a place for discussing these games in a mostly friendly and mature athmosphere.

Is this what passes for "mature and friendly" amongst game nerds? lol. I've seen more mature and friendly behavior on a playground.

Then you come around, little more than a month ago. And want us to be something else, something we've never pretended to be? And you expect to be taken seriously?

I expect not to be ridiculed by people who disagree with me. It seems I'm unreasonable, though. And since I'm right and all the people on this website who think it's a GOOD THING to refer to a FPS that incorporates a few RPG elements as a roleplaying game are wrong, I'll leave everyone here in peace to be wrong and enjoy their trivial casual gamer RPGs.

By the way, I'm not being arrogant when I claim I'm right and all the casual gamers are wrong. I believe that to be self evident to anyone who has been observing the industry for any length of time. I think the fact that this website supposedly dedicated to a niche genre has been over-run by mainstream casual gamers is just an example of pretentiousnous. Being a casual gamer is lame! Being a hardcore RPG fan is leet! Notice how often these mass-market dweebs boast about their hardcore gamer credentials?

 

[JemyM]

I expected a site about RPGs. It says "RPG Watch" up there, right?

 

[Prime Junta]

And since I'm right and all the people on this website who think it's a GOOD THING to refer to a FPS that incorporates a few RPG elements as a roleplaying game are wrong, I'll leave everyone here in peace to be wrong and enjoy their trivial casual gamer RPGs.

Thank you. I hope you find a site that's more relevant to your interests, and populated entirely by suave, mature, polite, non-nerdy people who care deeply about strict genre distinctions in a relatively obscure corner of the non-console gaming culture, *and* share your views on such topics of cosmic importance.

 

[Aditya]

Just look at his quote:

Being a casual gamer is lame! Being a hardcore RPG fan is leet!

This guy is obviously trolling for attention. Seems a banned retard from Codex, whose now seeking cheap thrills by trolling here..

I mean, he cant be that dumb-headed not to understand simple logic put finely by Dhruin n other Watchers here and he still continues the same rant…? He is consciously avoiding discussion on logical points 'coz that will put him in trouble. Quite obviously he is desperate for attention and his "love for HARDCORE RPGs" is only a farce.

If he doesn't depart, he should be at least temporarily banned.

 

[pibbur]

I expected a site about RPGs. It says "RPG Watch" up there, right? Maybe if there were more actual RPGs being made then this crew wouldn't need to stretch quite so much to find stuff to talk about.

It does cover RPG's. The fact that you also find a few games you don't think should be mentioned here, does not change that. Again you expect this site to be something it doesn't pretend to be.

Is this what passes for "mature and friendly" amongst game nerds? lol. I've seen more mature and friendly behavior on a playground.

What's so immature here? In this thread one person asked you to STFU. Other than that I can't see that you've been attacked (haven't checked all threads, but it seems to me that you are the one calling names)

I expect not to be ridiculed by people who disagree with me. It seems I'm unreasonable, though.

Ridiculed?

And since I'm right and all the people on this website who think it's a GOOD THING to refer to a FPS that incorporates a few RPG elements as a roleplaying game are wrong, I'll leave everyone here in peace to be wrong and enjoy their trivial casual gamer RPGs.

By the way, I'm not being arrogant when I claim I'm right and all the casual gamers are wrong. I believe that to be self evident to anyone who has been observing the industry for any length of time.

No, I don't see that is self evident. And I've been aroubnd playing CRPG's since 1984. And yes, I find the attitude you express here arrogant. Like someone who takes himself much too seriously.

I think the fact that this website supposedly dedicated to a niche genre has been over-run by mainstream casual gamers is just an example of pretentiousnous. Being a casual gamer is lame! Being a hardcore RPG fan is leet! Notice how often these mass-market dweebs boast about their hardcore gamer credentials?

In what way is it OVERRUN? You've critizised the focus 2 games have got: Deus Ex and Bioshock 2.

And again you claim that this site should be something else than what it wants to be. And you've been here for little more than a month.

 

[CraigCWB]

Just look at his quote:...consciously avoiding discussion on logical points 'coz that will put him in trouble.

I'd have to be a hell of a knucklehead to try to engage in "logical discussion" with a group of people who have ganged up to ridicule me, wouldn't I? Is that what you are used to wherever you come from? Make fun of people opinions and then egg them on to continue interacting with you? Sounds like bullying to me, but you call it "polite"... that's so odd. Who'd have thought mainstream PC gamers might be like that? WoW ooc chat was always been so civil and mature! Not to mention productive! I'm sure you guys never noticed though, because you'd never play a mainstream game like WoW.

I can understand his general sentiment but the tone he uses is just…

The tiem fro polite disagreement was 10 years ago. But in any case, I shouldn't have to say these things at all. It's the job of reviewers, critics and journalists to say these things. It woulda been SUPER COOL if when Deus Ex came out the game reviews said things like:

1) This game is being marketed as an RPG. We here at xyz mag feel it necessary to point out it not an RPG, and that the game company is engaging in what appears to to be misleading advertising. Fans of the roleplaying game genre will not be satisfied with this game. Fans of first person shooters may like the extra bells and whistles that Deus Ex has added.

2) This game is easy. People who like to be challenged when they play computer games will not be satisfied. The game does have difficulty settings, but there's no getting around the fact that the product was not designed to test the players gaming skills, or to make the player think their way out of difficult problems.

3) This game claims to be re-inventing a genre it is not even a part of, and it also tries to give customers the impression this game is a high end product and a "chosen one" by industry insiders. Again, this is misleading. This game is meant for the typical casual gamer who has little time to invest in mastering the complexities of more niche oriented games. It is also meant to appeal to people who are new to computer gaming.


And so on.

That's ALL IT TAKES. Honesty. If game companies are trying to pitch the software equivalent of Mariah Carey as the software equivalent of Megadeath then just effing call them on it. If they are making idiot-proof games and all the while claiming their target demographic is hardcore gamers, call them on it.

And if the game media did that, which is their JOB, then I wouldn't have to do it on this website. And THEY could deal with all the nerd rage, instead of me having to deal with it.