CRPG Analyzer: A checklist for computer role-playing games

[HiddenX]

We don't need a new name - CRPG is old and good.

We could add (look at my medal-Picture) the addition:
approved by RPGWatch if someone uses our definition.

(If all contributors to the checklists and Myrthos agree.)

The checklists are really good already and they can't be 100% perfect for all tastes, but this is no problem, because each checklist item is listed.
You can see against which items a game is checked.
If someone doesn't like a special checked feature he can simply ignore it.

 

[Ihaterpg]

It's not a matter of taste or a new tag name, it a matter of reality and you can't rewrite history. Wizardry, Dungeon Master, Diablo or Legend of Grimrock are CRPG.

Now if it was just me and with the point of view to include the historical reality of the CRPG tag, it's just <create a world>+<character evolution management> and <merge that to a game>.

There's many way to create a world and for me books did that a lot better than any game did, that's why linear RPG still work, because by telling a story they create a world.

But also lost and closed in a dungeon with nothing else than monsters and no NPC is also a world creation, just in a world setup restricted to those dungeons conditions. And that's why dungeon crawlers can be excellent examples of CRPG.

Pure character evolution management, meaning choices in this evolution is probably the key. But in my own opinion it's not enough and the world creation is the other element required for a CRPG tag. And yeah that will include even more games that not many people consider CRPG but as I already mentioned it's because the genre has influenced the general game design.

 

[HiddenX]

All Wizardries, Dungeon Master, Diablo fulfill all Must Haves - there are called CRPGs!
They don't have many story elements (Should Haves) - so the reviewer should make some comments.

Gothic fulfills all Must Haves and all Should Haves except one: Character Creation - it is called CRPG.

I really don't see a problem here.

 

[Ihaterpg]

S1) (MH) you can progress through a story
=> It means there's one main story, but I have played few CRPG without one main scenario ie no story.
=> You are trying to trick me ;-) by expending the meaning of story. For me it's wrong there could be no story, but story elements from a very large acceptation. Story elements could be better than world creation but for me it isn't. But story isn't story elements, and world creation is more exact for me.

S2) (MH) you can interact with NPCs
=> There can be no NPC, it must not be MH.

S3) (MH) you can follow quests (at least one main quest)
=> There can be no quest but goals you find yourself. It's just a precision but I think it's important. There's CRPG with no quest.

At the end, for me, that whole section isn't compatible with the CRPG tag. But yeah the majority participating is the point, just throwing my 2 cents, I won't stick here long anyway.

EDIT:
Quests, NPC, Items, Story : For me, wrong words, none are required for CRPG so shouldn't be mentioned in MH elements of CRPG. And I wonder about locations or exploration.

Exploration - E3) - (MH) you can find NPCs
=> Again there can be no NPC so shouldn't be in MH. Moreover if that wants include elements you can find in games like Dungeon Master, it's rather misleading. Lore elements play a sort of NPC role, but it's still a huge signification change, and in my opinion NPC doesn't match at all.

E2) (MH) you can find items
=> Once more by trying define elements, like NPC it ends be too restrictive in my opinion. Items are easy stuff to add in a game, more than many other stuff, so there's probably never any CRPG without items. But you could find only NPC that will provide you no item but information and skills for example. Would it make it a non CRPG?

And more examples using Quests, NPC, Items, Story in MH elements but for me not related to CRPG.

I read (and never finished!) a novel, without characters and without story, I certainly could play some time a CRPG without Quests, NPC, Items or Story.

 

[Arhu]

S2) (MH) you can interact with NPCs
=> There can be no NPC, it must not be MH.

Can you give examples of games that fulfill all MHs except this one? If a game is so low on Story elements that it doesn't have NPCs to talk with, it could well be called a Rogue-like or pure Dungeon Crawler. I haven't played Grimrock, but I did see some videos that featured NPCs you could interact with.

S3) (MH) you can follow quests (at least one main quest)
=> There can be no quest but goals you find yourself. It's just a precision but I think it's important. There's CRPG with no quest.

That is a valid point: "Create your own story". However, "quest" means there's a goal. If there's no goal at all in the game, it's sounds more like a sandbox, not a CRPG.

Have a look at the Venn diagram. All those games that are very weak in either Story, Character Development or Exploration are closely related to CRPGs. Adventures have good story elements and exploration; dungeon crawlers, rogue-likes or pure sandbox games have good exploration and character development, and I'm not sure what we'd call a game that has only good character development and a main good story but no exploration worth mentioning… We don't want to call all of those CRPGs.

 

[Ihaterpg]

About exploration and locations, ok I get it why I was suspicious about that element too as a required element for CRPG.

I played a CRPG, I didn't like at all (mainly because of the fight system) that hadn't any exploration. I'm 100% fan of exploration, not quantity (I even hate quantity because it involves less density of stuff and design qualities of exploration), but I can't deny that this CRPG without exploration was still a CRPG.

Once more the trick is to design a world, it's hard to imagine achieve it without exploration but that CRPG did it.

What's the story, a set of "famed fighters" accept a challenge, despite it's not clear the conditions of the challenge expect that it will be about fights.

At start of the game you choose a fighter (similar idea than in Dungeon Master) to play the game and later you'll choose a second to team with him/her.

Then you are thrown into a place like arena, there's nothing to explore just a fight to manage in an area.

All the point is about the relationships with the other fighters and understand the context, the reason, and how escape. And manage characters progressions and skills to be able to manage the fights and build a coherent fight team.

No exploration at all, but ok new locations as the game progress. Still a psychological CRPG purely based on relationships and dialogs and story can be vaguely imagined and clearly it will be a CRPG without exploration and without any location.

 

[Arhu]

I certainly could play some time a CRPG without Quests, NPC, Items or Story.

I'd argue that it wouldn't be a CRPG (as a genre) anymore, but perhaps something very vaguely related.

I remember that in one of the many discussions on the web about "what is an RPG", it was argued that anything can be a CRPG. Pong was supposedly a CRPG because you could role-play a ping pong paddle. No story, no NPCs, no character development , no items to find besides that one ball you could interact with. Sure, someone could go ahead and call that a CRPG — I'd just call it way too much abstraction.

Anyway, I do appreciate your input. It's certainly good food for thought.

I played a CRPG, I didn't like at all (mainly because of the fight system) that hadn't any exploration.

Can you remember the name?

edit:

Wizardry, Dungeon Master or Legend of Grimrock

Where would Legend of Grimrock fail? Looks a lot like a dungeon crawling CRPG to me. And Dungeon Master / Wizardry?

 

[HiddenX]

@Ihaterpg

We can change

S2) (MH) you can interact with NPCs

to

S2) (MH) you can interact with NPCs or any other entities (Oracles, Speaking Stones… ) that act as quest givers.

but I'm not going further…

 

[Ihaterpg]

Can you give examples of games that fulfill all MHs except this one? If a game is so low on Story elements that it doesn't have NPCs to talk with, it could well be called a Rogue-like or pure Dungeon Crawler. I haven't played Grimrock, but I did see some videos that featured NPCs you could interact with…

Really? There's NPC in Grimrock or Dungeon Master? I don't think so, anyway the trick is to substitute them with Lore elements. Some classical examples: Diaries and notes of past adventurers. Riddles and diaries of past master of the place. Video or radio recording. Books with lore information related to the context and game progression. And more.

Imagine a CRPG in an alien spaceship, no NPC from begin to end, but could be very fun.

For my only one MH category is valid (not MS) about the CRPG tag, the character progression management. Even that I think it could be considered abusive and achieved only through items and equipments. But I won't say it because it leads to the question I haven't the answer, is Diablo 3 still a CRPG or not?

I'd say that if at some points you have to choose between options for equipments and you need stick with it and have such choices to do multiple time, so you manage your character progression through fixed items choices, then it's still CRPG.

That is a valid point: "Create your own story". However, "quest" means there's a goal. If there's no goal at all in the game, it's sounds more like a sandbox, not a CRPG.

From where you get that Sandbox (or Dungeon Crawler) aren't CRPG? They are CRPG, the series at the origin (I think) of the Sandbox tag is the Elder Scroll series, you can't find something more CRPG than this series.

That's where this thread is leading, misconception of genres. Lol joking, don't take it bad.

About the "Create your own story", yeah I thought of it but didn't mentioned it because it throws back to puppets games. But yeah that's the point, except that it's not about imagine many story elements to gives density to the game and "role play" for yourself. It's your story is the collection of adventures you trigger in the world where is setup the CRPG. And yes the idea of sandbox is rather close because the few example I have in mind are CRPG you stop play when you want. But at some point when you don't find anymore story elements to open, it's rather pointless so your adventurers party can choose leave the area to travel to new area and it ends the game. But again, sandbox is CRPG.

Have a look at the Venn diagram. All those games that are very weak in either Story, Character Development or Exploration are closely related to CRPGs. Adventures have good story elements and exploration; dungeon crawlers, rogue-likes or pure sandbox games have good exploration and character development, and I'm not sure what we'd call a game that has only good character development and a main good story but no exploration worth mentioning… We don't want to call all of those CRPGs.

I have checked quickly that diagram, and the more detailed version linked in the thread. And for me it's quite wrong because "story" is misleading, I already explained why.

Secondly I mentioned in previous post an example of CRPG without any exploration. And I evoked an idea of CRPG without exploration and without new locations. And exploration is misleading too. It is intended for spacial exploration but would work for options exploration, mental explorations like through relationships and dialogs.

 

[Ihaterpg]

I'd argue that it wouldn't be a CRPG (as a genre) anymore, but perhaps something very vaguely related.

I remember that in one of the many discussions on the web about "what is an RPG", it was argued that anything can be a CRPG. Pong was supposedly a CRPG because you could role-play a ping pong paddle. No story, no NPCs, no character development , no items to find besides that one ball you could interact with. Sure, someone could go ahead and call that a CRPG — I'd just call it way too much abstraction.

One detail is wrong, "no character development", such quote is coming from a basic literal first degree reading of the tag, Computer Role Playing Game. Except that's it's not about Role Playing as role play really mean. But the day programs will be able to really manage role play, then I feel this guy will be right, for now it's pure illusion.

But ok my point of view can be argued, it's based on the point that world creation is a much better link between the CRPG along the time line than story is, and NPC is totally displaced. If in Dugeon Master or Legend of Grimrock you can argue there's vaguely a story, in Wizadry it's harder (but by extreme possible, at least with the "create your own story in your mind").

Can you remember the name?

Chaos Rings.

It's a crap, well for non lover of JRPG fights, but worth a try because it's intriguing and definitely probably a lovely CRPG if it had a great character management and fight system.

It pinpoints well how CRPG is about world creation and character management merged into a game.

Where would Legend of Grimrock fail? Looks a lot like a dungeon crawling CRPG to me. And Dungeon Master / Wizardry?

I don't understand, they fail the tag because they don't have NPC.

 

[Ihaterpg]

@Ihaterpg

We can change

S2) (MH) you can interact with NPCs

to

S2) (MH) you can interact with NPCs or any other entities (Oracles, Speaking Stones… ) that act as quest givers.

but I'm not going further…

It's not about interaction, there's no interaction with any "entities" in multiple CRPG.

And as I already explained it's not about quests, even less quests givers, it's just about goals.

Fine don't change anything, this won't change the CRPG tag defined here is a misleading and historically wrong definition of the tag. What's cool for creativity is that a tag can evolves to includes more, not to include less, it's too late.

Anyway the truth will prevail, a day. I wouldn't have quote it two years ago, where wiki definition of New Wave was still an attempt to rewrite history. But the new definition put in the wiki, which restored the truth, brought me back some faith in humanity. That's why I allow me quote X-Files. :lol:

EDIT: Don't you want play a CRPG, explore an alien ship, there's no NPC? Sounds appealing to me.

 

[HiddenX]

@ihaterpg

It's not about interaction, there's no interaction with any "entities" in multiple CRPG.

Names please.

***

In Dungeon Master there's one main quest: Defeat Lord Chaos

The quest is given in the Intro and more detailed in the handbook (with background story).

Minor quests, riddles, hints can be found in scrolls, and "speaking stones" - they act as quest giving entities and storytellers.

That said Dungeon Master is a pure Dungeon Crawler and NOT a perfect example for a CRPG. Our definition reflects that nicely.
A game not labeled CRPG can still be a very good game. I love Dungeon Master, but it is not a paragon for CRPGs, it is THE dungeon crawler.

***

If character development is the only defining element (like you suggest) then every game with some stats development have to be called CRPG.

That's wrong IMHO:

Not every Shooter with Hit Points and damage stats that increase over time should be called CRPG.

Exploration, Story and Character development define a CRPG.

 

[Ihaterpg]

If for you an inscription on a wall, a book, a diary, are entities or NPC then for now I don't have any example.

I think you name quests what I name goals and NPC or entities what I name information. But perhaps you can understand that I don't share this word usage? So I already provided examples without NPC and quests, Wizardry, Dungeon Master, ...

For the story, if there's a story in Dungeon Master then you won't find many games in any genre that doesn't have a story, it's to a point that it's pointless to mention this because it's not a criteria.

Is there a story in Wizardry like in Dungeon Master? I don't think so. It's still CRPG.

And your comment means such Dungeon Crawlers aren't CRPG, but that's wrong. It's not CRPG in the restrictive sense you are trying to give to the tag. But historically you are wrong, Wizardy and Dungeon Master are CRPG.

But it's not a big deal, and you won't be the first/first group attempting to rewrite history, nor the last.

 

[HiddenX]

Which Wizardry do you mean?

Wizardry 6,7,8 have NPCs/quest givers.

Wizardry 1-5 are again pure dungeon crawlers - some of the best. The background story was told in the manual - a common thing back in these days.
The main quest of the game was told at the beginning of the game.

I'm not trying to rewrite history. You are reading the defintion pedantic / hairsplitting:

NPCs:= entities you can interact with, quest givers
Quests:= things/goals you have to accomplish to reach milestones of the game.

 

[Ihaterpg]

Yeah the 1.

Why persist to use "interact"? That means a lot and you don't interact with a book or a drawing on a wall. The only interaction I remember in DM is with traps and puzzles, not quest givers or entities.

Dungeon Crawler isn't at all a tag I remember during the 80's it's a late tag for me, most probably from the 90's which was a period of tags creation lovers, the decade certainly produced more tags than the whole human history did! As if tags was creating something new.

It's not pedantic, it's I think a misleading approach, leading kids to erroneous understanding of the tag. CRPG is a more general tag that you would like, and this generates believing that Sandbox approach or Dungeon Crawler approach aren't CRPG, and this is wrong, not only in my opinion but historically.

You can find crowd of young that believed New Wave was something very strict and limited to not it was really. No surprise here, during long time the wiki description was quite misleading.

But again ok CRPG tag in this thread isn't the historical usage of the tag, fine, and ok that's not history rewriting.

 

[HiddenX]

The original tag for Dungeon Master on the box was:

Dungeon Adventure

 

[Arhu]

Just came back.. too much to read right now, but one interesting game to test would be System Shock 1 or 2. Could you try that, HiddenX?

 

[Ihaterpg]

I do think that there's various elements that can make a CRPG fun, and it's not where is pushing the oriented tag definition that setup this thread. I mean it's not the only way. Yeah, story, NPC, exploration, quests, are very cool stuff to develop to make a fun deep CRPG.

But I don't consider them more important than adventuring, simulation, stuff to resolves (from find how reach a secret hinted, to puzzles and riddles, or find a sneak path, and many more), lore and obviously pets. That's also why this CRPG tag defined here bother me a little (nothing important).

It drags into a preconception of the genre, that are clichés and is purely linked to current orientation of CRPG. Think of it as world creation is a much more interesting and open road than limit it to NPC, stories and quests.

And about Dungeon Adventure, lol so it's an adventure game in dungeon and there's clearly character progression management, so you brought the proof it was considered as a CRPG not a Dungeon Crawlers. If you want lead it to Dungeon only CRPG can't be a CRPG, it's a dead end.

 

[HiddenX]

@Ihaterpg - thank you for your input - you really love CRPGs, don't you?


Dungeon Master

A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions (V0.9):

Character Development
C1) (MH) you can control one or more characters (=party) yes
C2) (MH) you can develop your characters' stats and/or abilities by solving quests and other game actions like exploration, conversation, combat,… yes
C3) (MH) you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire yes
C4) (SH) you can create your characters no- you have to chose them
C5) (SH) character development requires careful thought and planning yes

Exploration
E1) (MH) by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations yes
E2) (MH) you can find items yes
E3) (MH) you can find NPCs yes (Lord Chaos), but most of the game you interact with dungeon elements that replace NPCs in this game: riddle stones etc., hints can be found on walls and scrolls
E4) (SH) you can manipulate the gameworld in some way (levers, buttons,…) yes, lots of
E5) (SH) the gameworld can affect your party (weather, traps, closed doors, …) yes - you need food - always, traps are everywhere
E6) (SH) you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles, unlock locked areas … yes

Story
S1) (MH) you can progress through a story yes, but minimal predefined story
S2) (MH) you can interact with NPCs -> see E3
S3) (MH) you can follow quests (at least one main quest) yes
S4) (SH) the story is influenced more or less by your actions yes
S5) (SH) you can have conversations with NPCs see E3
S6) (SH) you can make choices in those conversations and/or in the story yes
S7) (SH) your choices have consequences yes -> big traps are in the game
S8) (SH) advancing in the story requires thought (riddles, irreversible choices,…) yes

Combat
F1) (SH) Combat efficiency (e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access…) is in some way tied to character stats or abilities yes
F2) (SH) Combat should be challenging (preparing, use of tactics and/or environment possible) yes - use doors for killing nasty enemies
______
F=Fight

Spoiler: Tag List (V0.9)

Tag-List

(Genre)
(tag) Adventure-RPG: the main emphases of the game are on Exploring and Story, less on Character Development
(tag) Rogue-like: the main emphases of the game are on Exploring and Character Development, less on Story
(tag) Hack & Slash: many enemies, most of them easy to kill, respawning of enemies, much loot
(tag) J-RPG: Manga Style graphics, turn based combat, Eastern style CRPG
(tag) W-RPG: Western style CRPG
(tag) MMORPG: Many players are questing simultaneously online
(tag) Puzzle-RPG: the game's main emphasis are puzzles yes
(tag) Non-Combat: the game features no combat
(tag) Action: the combat is real time without pause yes
(tag) Strategic: additional troop (not your party) management available
(tag) Tactical: the game puts an emphasis on player tactical skill over character skill, often multiple squads (party splitting) are possible
(tag) Sneaker: combat is possible, avoiding it with stealth is better
(tag) Thief-like: combat is possible, avoiding it with stealth is better, thief-skills are essential (lock picking, ambush, hiding, sneaking,…)
(tag) Sandbox: open environment where a lot of content is organized around simulation rather than story

(Combat style)
(tag) Real-time with pause: the real time combat can be paused any time
(tag) Real-time: the combat is real-time -> Action CRPG yes
(tag) Turn-based: the combat is turn-based

(Control)
(tag) Full control: full control over every party members action in combat yes
(tag) AI control: you only control part of the party directly, others are controlled by AI while they may accept general commands

(Multiplayer)
(tag) Massive
(tag) Single + MP
(tag) Single-player
(tag) Coop
(tag) PvP
(tag) PvE

(POV)
(tag) 1st-person yes
(tag) 3rd-person
(tag) Isometric
(tag) Top down
(tag) Floating camera: adds rotational control allowing full 3D navigation

(Setting)
(tag) Fantasy yes
(tag) Historical
(tag) Modern
(tag) Post-apoc
(tag) Sci-fi
(tag) Steampunk
(tag) Technofantasy

(Color palette)
(tag) subdued
(tag) realistic yes
(tag) whimsical
(tag) dazzling

Dungeon Master is an Action Puzzle CRPG, a dungeon crawler masterpiece without much predefined story or NPC-Interaction. You create a story mostly by yourself by crawling through traps, puzzles,riddles, teleports and finding a way to reach your final goal - Lord Chaos.
Tags: Fantasy setting, 1st person, real time combat -> Action Puzzle RPG, realistic color palette, full party control
________
Reminder:
We need a Dungeon Crawler tag

Question:
Should we broaden the meaning of NPCs to fit games like Dungeon Master better?
System Shock 2 is a similar case - most NPCs are lying around dead - you get new quests/goals by finding and reading their audio diaries.

something like that:

E3) (MH) you can find information sources (NPCs, speaking trees, riddle stones, audio tapes…)

S2) (MH) you can get information (hints, goals, quests, skills…) from information sources (NPCs, speaking trees, riddle stones, audio tapes…)

 

[Wulf]

In any RPG, each and every single possible interaction, whatever the method or terminology or descriptive words used, is an act resulting from *exploration*

There can be no *character* progression or *storyline* progression without *exploration* therefore *exploration* is the key core element progressor of a RPG.

Any interaction may or may not progress the *storyline* or *character*

So no interactive npc's are needed at all in the (MH) - by listening to a statue or heavenly voice or angel, read a lore book, etc' etc' can aid progression by determining which interactions are progressors and which are not.