Dragon Age 2 - 8 Reasons Why It's Good

Absolutely agree. And for what I paid (wasn't full price) DA2 gave me a pretty fun experience that I could not get from any other game out at the time. It came close enough to the Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, KotOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect style gameplay that I like playing. Party-based, multiple party character's story arcs interacting, voice-acted, physical and stat character customization, interesting questions (navel gazing), plenty of lore, etc. When it came to hitting those points DA2 was OK. Hopefully Inquisition raises the bar.

It's kind of surprising that there haven't been many other fully voiced party-based games with multiple interacting character arcs. Kingdoms of Amalur, Fables series, Witcher series, even Elder Scrolls. They all do their own thing. But I really have a weakness for that epic LotR-GoT-StarWars-StarTrek-etc party interaction/dialogue/combat dynamic. It's really hard to get into just single character gameplay. If DA2 had been single character combat/dialgoue/interaction I probably would have played the demo and then forgot about it.
 
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It came close enough to the Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, KotOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect style gameplay that I like playing.
For short moment I hoped to find a game in this list that I didn't know cause I like the same stuff as you do and therefore quite liked DA2. :)
 
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Right. So the reaction to DA2 would have been the exact same if it had been put out by a small indie dev rather than Bioware?

If you say so. ;)

I'd be interested to hear your reasons why it would be different.

Risen 3 had lots of pretensions to being a high quality game, but that comes in for a huge amount of stick, but also has some loyal fans.

But, of course, now that's given people the opportunity to make the topic Risen 3 instead of "what if".

How about someone give an example of a pretty lame indy game with AAA aspirations that gets more credit than it's due? Because I haven't heard any yet.
 
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I could give you plenty of examples of indie games that get more credit than they deserve, but it's just going to be my opinion. For instance, I think the entire lineup of RPGs from Spiderweb Software are overrated by a lot of RPG fans.

As far as why DA2 would be looked at differently if it was from an indie developer, I really shouldn't need to explain that to you. Bioware is one the premier RPG developers in the industry. It goes without saying that people expect a certain level of quality from them. A level that obviously would not be expected from an indie developer.
 
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I don't rate indie games differently or have a charitable attitude about them, but I do recognise the difference between a small team and a large team.

But development doesn't get better at a linear rate based on resources and team size. A very large team generally means a lot less innovation - and you can't change things in the middle of development without taking a gigantic hit.

That's because large teams means big budget - and often it means having completely separate smaller teams working on completely separate aspects of the game. This becomes an even bigger problem if they're not located in the same building.

So, lots of resources and planning goes into communication, logistics and keeping everyone on the same page at all times.

So, smaller teams can have quite an advantage when it comes to design and gameplay refinement - because they can experiment and change things around without losing sight of what they're doing, and if they're a tight crew, they can instantly communicate every change and every idea. This is a major advantage that many might not be aware of.

Obviously, the downside to small teams with a small budget is the production values and the quantity of unique assets. Such things inevitably take manpower and time - and you simply can't produce stuff on the same level as a major developer with the infrastructure in place for everything. To them, it's almost like a factory - and the artists might not have a burning passion, but they can still produce high quality art based on a streamlined process.

So, large teams CAN be much better for a game, if the vision is strong and the production is handled with care and proper planning. But that's much harder than it might seem.

That's why the vast majority of AAA games are, essentially, very pretty and very average - because there's a minimal element of risk involved, and most suits take care not to give the people in charge free rein.
 
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I could give you plenty of examples of indie games that get more credit than they deserve, but it's just going to be my opinion. For instance, I think the entire lineup of RPGs from Spiderweb Software are overrated by a lot of RPG fans.

As far as why DA2 would be looked at differently if it was from an indie developer, I really shouldn't need to explain that to you. Bioware is one the premier RPG developers in the industry. It goes without saying that people expect a certain level of quality from them. A level that obviously would not be expected from an indie developer.

I'm just not getting this angle. I had a look at Spiderweb's catalog on Metacritic and only a couple of their games even got reviews and popular support, the majority of them don't even have a rating yet from lack of interest. So can you specify a specific game from Spiderweb because if you include the whole catalog then the phrase "by lots of RPG fans" is completely incongruous.

I might even go so far as to suggest DA2 get's more praise than it's due for the sole reason that it's a Bioware game, because if it wasn't the vast majority of people wouldn't have picked it up and those that did would be purchasing it based on recommendation rather than because it's part of a wider canon.

DA2 sold well because it was a sequel to an extremely popular game, of course some people will like it, there's people who like Sacred 3 for heaven's sake (I guess it's that ol' opinion clause thing), but would "more" people have praised it if it was an indy game? I don't think Spiderweb games is a very good example, and you didn't go to any great length to describe why the entire Spiderweb catalog is undeserving of what little praise it gets, you simply stated it's your opinion.

Of course the current attitude towards DA2 is biased because of expectations, but that was the whole point of the original philosophical point "what if it was made by an indy dev and not part of Bioware's canon" to which how can you make any supposition aside from pure fiction that it would have even gained any interest, let alone a following or undue praise - the supposition that it would be more liked as it wouldn't carry the burden of expectation is one thing, but the issue that it also wouldn't have an established loyal fanbase would equally detract from that in equal measure.
 
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I'm just not getting this angle. I had a look at Spiderweb's catalog on Metacritic and only a couple of their games even got reviews and popular support, the majority of them don't even have a rating yet from lack of interest. So can you specify a specific game from Spiderweb because if you include the whole catalog then the phrase "by lots of RPG fans" is completely incongruous. .

Well I'm only going by what I've seen around here as I don't frequent any other forums on a regular basis. Trust me when I say those titles are pretty highly regarded around here, although I've never quite understood why. The Geneforge Saga has an average user-rating of 8.9 on Metacritc, and all the games I've tried from that series put me to sleep.


I might even go so far as to suggest DA2 get's more praise than it's due for the sole reason that it's a Bioware game, because if it wasn't the vast majority of people wouldn't have picked it up and those that did would be purchasing it based on recommendation rather than because it's part of a wider canon.

The vast majority picked it up because it was the sequel to DA: Origins.


DA2 sold well because it was a sequel to an extremely popular game, of course some people will like it, there's people who like Sacred 3 for heaven's sake (I guess it's that ol' opinion clause thing), but would "more" people have praised it if it was an indy game? I don't think Spiderweb games is a very good example, and you didn't go to any great length to describe why the entire Spiderweb catalog is undeserving of what little praise it gets, you simply stated it's your opinion.

I'm not interested in going to any great length to decribe why I have that opinion. You asked for an example and I gave you one. Any such example from anyone is going to be subjective. I tried the games and simply didn't find them as good as the praise around here would have indicated.

As far as more people praising DA:2 if it were an indie, well yeah, it most certainly would have received more praise for things like the visuals, music, and voice acting. I'm not saying it would deserve a higher rating though.
 
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I'd be interested to hear your reasons why it would be different.

One reason, two letters: EA. They are published by Electronic Arts and therefore subjected to the flak people hurl at EA.

EA is the big, bad corporation that ruined gaming so anything associated to them is toxic.
 
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Thanks for your opinion Chien. I'm sure far more people bought the game and liked it because it had an EA marketing budget than those who disliked it because it was an EA product.
 
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I don't think being an EA product had much to do with people disliking DA2. They disliked it because it's a mediocre game - especially when compared to its predecessor.
 
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Definitely. I'm convinced it would be considered a decent game if it was released under some different title, by a fresh developer. However, it pales in comparison to DA: O, which makes it look a lot worse than it really is.
 
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Some people are predisposed when it comes to such emotional connections - and it's not uncommon to start out disliking something because such and such are behind it.

But I think "most" people dislike a game simply because they don't think it's very good.

DA2 was a special case, though, because it was sort of THE example of how low the new Bioware has fallen, and a lot of people seem to blame EA for that. I don't, though.

EA has always been EA. Bioware are the ones who freely elected to make games subject to the EA approach.
 
I'm sure far more people bought the game and liked it because it had an EA marketing budget than those who disliked it because it was an EA product.

That affirmed opinion gives a second reason for a different reaction:

Indies do not have EA marketing budget.

So far, two causes. Both linked to EA.
 
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Well Couchpotato says he's running out of ideas for a poll, how about:

I liked DA2 and I think it would be rated better if it had been made by an indy
I disliked DA2 but I think it would be rated better if it had been made by an indy
I thought DA2 was average but I think it would be rated better if it had been made by an indy
I liked DA2 but don't think it would be rated better if it had been made by an indy
I disliked DA2 and don't think it would be rated better if it had been made by an indy
I thought DA2 was average but don't think it would be rated better if it had been made by an indy
 
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What use is what we think about how it would be rated? That's pure speculation on our part, and we're hardly the most impartial bunch you could find when it comes to Bioware.

As it is, though, it's supremely obvious that the backlash was excessive.
 
What use is what we think about how it would be rated? That's pure speculation on our part, and we're hardly the most impartial bunch you could find when it comes to Bioware.

I've no idea, someone raised the point, I guess they felt making that point had some use and since everyone seems to be finding the topic interesting...?

As it is, though, it's supremely obvious that the backlash was excessive.

Ah, new topic. What backlash?
 
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Who, other than you, suggested that a poll would be useful?

Ooooh, right. You said "What use is what we think about how it would be rated?" which reads like a generalised statement about the past god knows how many posts. You should have said "What use is a poll... [some reason why our conversations shouldn't be expanded into a poll]?" Then I'd have understood what you meant.

The one against DA2 by consumers.

There was a backlash by consumers? How many people returned their copies?
 
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I´ve replayed the game about a year ago, with both post-release story DLCs installed, and found it a lot more enjoyable experience than the one I got when playing the game just after the release. The main reasons would likely include patches that made some issues with combat more tolerable or go away, quality of said DLCs and perhaps also the facts I´ve played a mage (as opposed to a bow rogue) and did so on hard difficulty (as opposed to playing through the first act on nightmare which, at least in the unpatched game, was seriously at odds with the combat system and encounter design).

Anyway, I haven´t read the article, but some of my reasons why the game might be worth playing would be:

The overall narrative experience is quite unique - while the plot that allows players to reach the end is often going places, I don´t think it´s actually the core of narrative experience in this game, it´s more of a setting that provides background for the actual core which consists of following and helping to shape personal journeys of handful of people (pc included) throughout the years in a troubled city. It´s a story about people and their development, not about defeating a big bad. When seen that way, the relative lack of reactivity during the main plot becomes less of an issue, because the game does provide a fair amount of it in the "people" aspect.

There are few elements that notably support the above.

First and foremost, joinable party members. Unlike in most other games, even after becoming available to join the party they don´t loose a sense of having independent lives. This is achieved by the combination of no main base of operations where everyone chills while not on a quest (they each chill in different parts of the city), each having a personal questline spanning the game´s three main acts, and what I consider to be the most robust banter system in an cRPG to date (they talk to each other a lot and their relations develop as the game progresses, sometimes there are also cinematic dialogue sequences of them meeting each other).
Besides that, while not perfect, the influence system is more granular than usual and doesn´t necessarily lead to a loss of content quantity if pc is at odds with the character, the only loss occurs if there are no strong feelings one way or the other. If there are though, a fair amount of cinematic dialogues play out differently, depending on whether a character is a "friend" or a "rival" and the mutual standing, as well as some personal quests´ resolutions, affect how the personal storylines play out.
As is usual in games with talkative party members, writing differs in quality and some personalities may rub someone wrong regardless of writing quality. Personally I found the one lacking the most to be Anders, on the other hand I really liked Aveline, Varric and Isabella, rest being middle of the road. I´d add that playing a mage also gave me a more compelling sibling of the two.
At any rate, the party members never really feel "recruited" in the sense it usually feels in other games, they feel more like characters your pc has strong connections with.

Second, the game (the first half at least) comes with a fairly strong family aspect that provides a different grounding for the pc than usual.

Third, there´s also a rather subtle system in which pc´s personality is shaped by dominant tone picked in other dialogues, utilized on occasions where pc talks without player´s control or after picking "non-tonal", non-investigative responses. Allowing pc assuming a certain tone without player prompt might be considered a flaw, but personally I found it a welcome additional way of showing how player affected pc´s personality long term.
As a side note, as someone who thinks that in games with cinematic dialogues it´s sometimes desirable to let a pc talk without player´s input for better flow of conversations, I wish more games adopted DA2´s dominant tone system in some form, since to me it seems like a good compromise (between maintaining dialogue flow and player influence).

When it comes to combat, I think it does have some strengths, especially after patches.
Probably the main strength comes from the ability trees which offer a solid variety of ways how to build (and progress in building) a character and keep on giving deep into the game, mostly thanks to cross-class combo possibilities and specialization trees.
In the field this translates into the combat experience that becomes more engaging the bigger player´s arsenal is, partly due to variety itself and partly due to having better means to deal with the game´s wave-y encounter design faster. Obviously this also points at one of the game´s weaknesses - the encounter design is strongly at odds with low player levels, resulting in a repetitive and monotone early combat experience with a good possibility of making players tired of the system before it gets the chance of feeling better.
Another good thing about the combat is general responsiveness (aka what the "awesome button" remark likely originally referred to) and fluidity, but I´d say to raise the chances of appreciating this, one should bury the notion of playing this game "tactically" with frequent pausing and adopt generally more immediately reactive real time approach instead (and use pause only when lining up combos or getting from a clutch). Though not to same degree, in this regard the game is relatively similar to the second and third Mass Effects, as in (and imo) if your´re playing these games with pause you´re "doing it wrong", regardless of what developers´ intentions might´ve been.
At any rate, regardless of whether the wave-y encounter design is a flaw or not (I think it certainly is), after the slow beginning the game in my opinion does manage to provide a potentially engaging combat experience if you accept it as a fast paced, visceral real time with an occasional pause kind of deal. On hard difficulty I found the ratio between combat and other activities to be pretty good too - there was just about the right amount of more challenging encounters that encouraged more attentive use of abilities and positioning, but the game´s numerous trash encounters could still be dispatched quickly. In other words, enough challenge to make character advancement feel meaningful, but mostly without the cost of abundant tedium.

Finally, I have to mention the two story DLCs here as well. I wouldn´t say either is perfect but they both show how DA2 can work when its strengths are not accompanied by some of its weaknesses. The party banter is more reactive than before and in both cases the pc also often chimes in with lines differing based on dominant personality, encounter design is almost free of waves and when they´re there they make sense (don´t appear from thin air), showing that the underlying combat system is actually solid, and vanilla style re-used environments are nowhere to be seen. There are also occasional puzzles that help the gameplay diversity.
Moreover, playing both within the game´s third act proved to be a great decision, since it made the game´s most lackluster part a lot meatier and actually turned into the most enjoyable segment for me, partly because of DLCs themselves and partly because it provided notably more time to play with a roster of fully advanced characters, which is when I think the game´s combat is generally at its best.

Besides some mentions above, I´m not going over the game´s weaknesses, except for saying that they may not turn out to be an experience-breaking deal for someone who appreciates some other game´s aspects in similar ways I did on my second playthrough.

I think that the unpatched game where I´ve played the whole first act on nightmare (the rest on normal or hard) with a bowman was about 5/10 for me, whereas the second playthrough with a game on hard and the two DLCs resulted in a 7.5/10 experience - I still couldn´t overlook the flaws marring the game, but some of its strengths and mainly the overall uniqueness made it a worthwhile entertainment after all.
 
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