Dragon Age 2 - Demo Tidbits

Yep, and Dart is one of those guys!! :) For real fun though, you need to spend more time in the P&R forum!!!! :D

Oh I'll get there eventually... got to take it slow on new forums, can't go around making enemies on a daily basis ;)
 
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Let's stop the personalities and just discuss the games please.

I agree, however I think the following bears review…

It's like RPG Codex up in this joint. Seriously.

The wealth of negativity around this title reminds of the Codex, which is basically 24/7 negativity. That's all I meant and I didn't specify anyone, get personal or tell people they were dumb to have a certain opinion.

More condescension and smugness, and you try to say "well you started it" to justify yourself but I don't believe I did.

FWIW, you did start it… You attempted to dismiss any criticism or "negativity" by painting it in the same light as what goes on over at the Codex. Aside from a single troll(SAGO), most people here provide their reasons. The Codex view can be summed up as "LOL, dumbdowned/streamlined grimdark pseudoquasi-RPG faggot shit served with a dollop of FAIL on top". Maybe it's just me, but the critics on this site have yet to voice their displeasure in such a way…

Whether you realize it or not, by suggesting all criticism of DA2 is similar to what has been spawned by the Codex think tank, you are in fact trying to silence views in opposition to your own…

I'm all for discussing DA2 or it's demo, but if criticism/negativity will be brushed off as Codexian, what's the point?
 
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FWIW, you did start it… You attempted to dismiss any criticism or "negativity" by painting it in the same light as what goes on over at the Codex.

You might have read it that way but my post was simply a way of saying people are very negative about this game. Hence a thread about DA2 reads like a codex thread, as in it is 90% negative.

I didn't say that was unfounded or stupid, nor did I say something like "if you guys could open your eyes and be smart like me you would see the game is awesome," which is the kind of shit a certain other person is doing.
 
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You might have read it that way but my post was simply a way of saying people are very negative about this game. Hence a thread about DA2 reads like a codex thread, as in it is 90% negative.

I didn't say that was unfounded or stupid, nor did I say something like "if you guys could open your eyes and be smart like me you would see the game is awesome," which is the kind of shit a certain other person is doing.

I think bringing up RPGCodex has its own baggage that goes well beyond simple negativity in most people's minds. Either way, in this case, I think the majority of PC RPG fans are being negative because they really don't like the way DA2 is going as evidenced from interviews, videos and the demo.

Personally, the talent changes and removal of things like skills strike me as a move in the wrong direction. Having a predefined protagonist is something I really dislike (even other games that I did mostly enjoy such as Risen have to overcome that knock against it). These changes all serve to gut the RPG system of the game which is the whole raison d'etre of the genre imo.

The dialogue wheel was goofy even in Mass Effect - though it was sort of interesting as a shorthand to keep conversation flowing in a cinematic manner which helped keep the B movie feel of the game. As far as I know, Dragon Age was never meant to emulate B movies or tv shows.

The combat animations have been changed to be one animation per move such as the warrior 1 handed sword stab auto attack. No swings, no parries, just repeated stabbing. This combined with the hugely sped up combat makes me feel as if I wasn't sufficiently ADD to appreciate the change or perhaps Bioware found inspiration in classic arcade games.

The only positive thing I've seen so far is that the framed narrative is a storytelling device that I've enjoyed elsewhere and that has looked interesting to me. Everything regarding the gameplay has struck me in a very negative manner which is a shame as I enjoyed most Bioware games up to Dragon Age: Origins.
 
I think bringing up RPGCodex has its own baggage that goes well beyond simple negativity in most people's minds.

Probably. Maybe that was my mistake. All I know is I decided to join some RPG forums recently and I tried that one for a bit but it was overwhelmingly negative and pro-piracy, so I came here. The DA2 threads here make me feel like I never left (and some of the posts in the Skyrim threads).

If there is a long history of this sort of thing then I probably overstepped my experience.
 
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There has been a Bioware vs Bethesda debate/war going on for years on most gaming forums, even here. Most of us enjoy games from both devs for differing reasons, but we still get the strident posters who hate one and love the other. Reason has nothing to do with it, just emotion so my advice is to stay out of the fire and eventually one of us will smack a few wrists and maybe lock a thread or two as required. :)
 
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There has been a Bioware vs Bethesda debate/war going on for years on most gaming forums, even here.

Hey, you've forgot the "Alrik against the rest of the world" debate-war ! :D
 
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There has been a Bioware vs Bethesda debate/war going on for years on most gaming forums, even here. Most of us enjoy games from both devs for differing reasons, but we still get the strident posters who hate one and love the other. Reason has nothing to do with it, just emotion so my advice is to stay out of the fire and eventually one of us will smack a few wrists and maybe lock a thread or two as required. :)

Now I'm genuinely curious… Have you tried out the DA2 demo? If so, what was your take?

Hey, you've forgot the "Alrik against the rest of the world" debate-war ! :D

O_O

How's that been working out?
 
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DoctorNarrative and Rune: I appreciate that you guys are willing to defend developers who don't always deserve the scorn and vitriol hurled their way, but you do realize that by simply attacking every person who has a negative comment, you are being just as obnoxious as the overly negatively biased people who hate "insert_company_x" no matter what they do, right? So far, both of you have defended DA2 in a vehement manner without ever giving a detailed description of why the game is a worthwhile experience, based on what evidence we have. If you don't like the negativity surrounding this game, then balance things out with a logical, objective, and non-aggressive post about why DA2 is an enjoyable experience to you.

Personally, I would love to hear from an RPG fan why DA2 might be enjoyable from an objective standpoint. By over-compensating for the game, however, I am hardly being convinced that this game is any good, and you are not making a compelling argument by avoiding a real discussion about the game. Instead, you focus your efforts on attacking everybody and accusing them of being "pro-Euro RPG, anti-U.S./Candadian RPG" if they dare to dislike the game.

So let's have a civilized discussion about DA2, instead of attacking one another. I'll let you start: Why is DA 2 any good, based off of the evidence we have so far, including the demo?
 
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DoctorNarrative and Rune: I appreciate that you guys are willing to defend developers who don't always deserve the scorn and vitriol hurled their way, but you do realize that by simply attacking every person who has a negative comment, you are being just as obnoxious as the overly negatively biased people who hate "insert_company_x" no matter what they do, right? So far, both of you have defended DA2 in a vehement manner without ever giving a detailed description of why the game is a worthwhile experience, based on what evidence we have. If you don't like the negativity surrounding this game, then balance things out with a logical, objective, and non-aggressive post about why DA2 is an enjoyable experience to you.

Personally, I would love to hear from an RPG fan why DA2 might be enjoyable from an objective standpoint. By over-compensating for the game, however, I am hardly being convinced that this game is any good, and you are not making a compelling argument by avoiding a real discussion about the game. Instead, you focus your efforts on attacking everybody and accusing them of being "pro-Euro RPG, anti-U.S./Candadian RPG" if they dare to dislike the game.

So let's have a civilized discussion about DA2, instead of attacking one another. I'll let you start: Why is DA 2 any good, based off of the evidence we have so far, including the demo?

I did post it earlier. Why should I do it again if you ignored it then?

I said: We haven't seen the whole thing so far, and the graphics to me look great and stylized not cartoony. It is faster, but the combat plays out a lot like the original games combat just a bit faster. Bioware games are about the stories, and they do that well. The voice acting in the game was great and the performance on my machine was acceptable. I played the demo realizing that you are only going to get a glimpse of what the actual game is.

As for your comments about being irrationally defensive…I'm not. But you sure took no time to ignore all the complete crap posts by the people with like 15 posts. This site does have a pro european stand point and I think it is mostly due to the people who frequent it, if it's from the area you live in or are near you are more likely to look at them favorably. Funny thing is, I'm the last person to hate any game…I basically play any that I have found fun. I really don't give a damn if one person says this is more rpg then that…I mean really how pathetic is that?

I wrote this:

You know what? The graphics really work. In it's favour, it doesn't look like every other RPG out there. Combat works, it is quick but manageable. I won't judge the story, since this demo is clearly just a combat quick look. If it is anywhere as deep as the first one I think it could work.

You still have the pause feature to give orders, and whoever said the voice acting was bad…wow. I'm not sure what games you were playing that were better. Seems fun, and on the PC it didn't feel that for off the first one(yes combat was faster) but overall it was interesting.
 
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure I wrote my thoughts up somewhere as well. My predominant viewpoint is basically that it's the same game combat wise, just a little faster, which is good if you ask me. The story has changed from a player-avatar to an actual character, but for Bioware RPGs I think that is a good thing since they are so cinematic. And I love the art style.

Not much else to say really. I like party-based tactical RPGs and Dragon Age 2 is a good one in my opinion.

Also, again, I don't think I was attacking people for being negative, I was just saying "wow there is a lot of negativity around this game."
 
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I said: We haven't seen the whole thing so far, and the graphics to me look great and stylized not cartoony. It is faster, but the combat plays out a lot like the original games combat just a bit faster. Bioware games are about the stories, and they do that well. The voice acting in the game was great and the performance on my machine was acceptable. I played the demo realizing that you are only going to get a glimpse of what the actual game is.

I wrote this:

You know what? The graphics really work. In it's favour, it doesn't look like every other RPG out there. Combat works, it is quick but manageable. I won't judge the story, since this demo is clearly just a combat quick look. If it is anywhere as deep as the first one I think it could work.

You still have the pause feature to give orders, and whoever said the voice acting was bad…wow. I'm not sure what games you were playing that were better. Seems fun, and on the PC it didn't feel that for off the first one(yes combat was faster) but overall it was interesting.

Apologies for missing your post on the game, not sure how I missed it. I also did notice the "this game sucks!" comments with no explanation of why, but the vast majority of the complaints given have been very fair, IMO.

As for your comments regarding the game, given the evidence available, you make some good points. Here are my thoughts:

As far as art direction goes: This is something that no one can ever possibly be "right" about; it all comes down to purely individual preference. For me, I strongly dislike the art direction because I prefer "realistic" over "stylized." Either way, it isn't a huge deal for me what a game looks like, I simply would have preferred an art direction similar to the first game.

As for combat, I agree that it isn't a complete departure from DA:O, but I do wish that there was an option to slow it down. It feels like more of an illusion of being a hack n' slash action game rather than being an actual hack n' slash action game, and thankfully, it retains an RPG feel. However, to me it still feels like a shallow action game forced its way into a tactical RPG, which makes the combat feel quite unsatisfying.

However, what really bothers me is the over-the-top abilities and animations, and that the combat is much too fast for my tastes. I really enjoyed the realistic pace of combat in DA and the believable animations, and overall I found combat to be much more engaging and immersive in DA1. This is mostly related to my personal tastes though; I've always preferred a believable fantasy world over a stylized fantasy world that is so over-the-top that it is no longer believable anymore. I want the characters to struggle if they are using a heavy sword. I don't want mages machine-gun firing their magic. I want rogues to have to be tactically positioned behind an enemy in order to backstab them, rather than teleporting, backflipping, or whatever other silly things they do in DA2 to get in position. Basically, and please keep in mind that this is purely an opinion based solely on my own preferences, I find the world and combat of DA2 to be extremely cheesy and not very engaging.

The one thing that I cannot judge given the evidence is the story. I've always enjoyed Bioware's stories and characters, and even though they have become a bit formulaic and slightly predictable over the years, I still find Bioware's tales to be very entertaining, well-written, and well acted.

So without any idea about the quality of the story, everything else is extremely disappointing to me, as I was hoping for DA2 to go in a very different direction compared to where it has gone. That doesn't mean that DA2 is going to be "terrible" by any means, but it just doesn't seem to appeal to me, and several of the design choices are ones that I personally really don't like and cannot support with any sort of praise.

I'm left with a very bitter taste in my mouth for DA2; given the financial success of DA1, there was no need for Bioware to so desperately appeal to a bigger market and go in this direction for the sequel. With that said, it certainly isn't the "dumbed-down piece of sh--" that some claim, either. But I can't help but feel that Bioware has once again taken a step backwards in order to sell more copies, sacrificing the overall quality and depth of their game in the process.
 
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure I wrote my thoughts up somewhere as well. My predominant viewpoint is basically that it's the same game combat wise, just a little faster, which is good if you ask me. The story has changed from a player-avatar to an actual character, but for Bioware RPGs I think that is a good thing since they are so cinematic. And I love the art style.

Not much else to say really. I like party-based tactical RPGs and Dragon Age 2 is a good one in my opinion.

Also, again, I don't think I was attacking people for being negative, I was just saying "wow there is a lot of negativity around this game."

Sorry I missed your points on DA2 as well; I went back through and found some of what you said, and you also made some very good points. As I stated in my rather long post, DA2 certainly doesn't seem terrible, or overly "dumbed down." A lot of it is going to come down to personal preference, such as the at direction and new animations. I do think that it is ultimately a step backwards from DA:O, but it's far from being Bioware's take on "God of War."
 
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You say the abilities were over the top...you do realize the first little bit is a legendary version of your character and not the way you would normally be...those were powers at their max. So far so good, I understand your objections to certain parts.
 
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I strongly dislike the art direction because I prefer "realistic" over "stylized." Either way, it isn't a huge deal for me what a game looks like, I simply would have preferred an art direction similar to the first game.

As for combat, I agree that it isn't a complete departure from DA:O, but I do wish that there was an option to slow it down. It feels like more of an illusion of being a hack n' slash action game rather than being an actual hack n' slash action game, and thankfully, it retains an RPG feel. However, to me it still feels like a shallow action game forced its way into a tactical RPG, which makes the combat feel quite unsatisfying.

However, what really bothers me is the over-the-top abilities and animations, and that the combat is much too fast for my tastes. I really enjoyed the realistic pace of combat in DA and the believable animations, and overall I found combat to be much more engaging and immersive in DA1.
*snip*
I don't want mages machine-gun firing their magic. I want rogues to have to be tactically positioned behind an enemy in order to backstab them, rather than teleporting, backflipping, or whatever other silly things they do in DA2 to get in position.
*snip*
I find the world and combat of DA2 to be extremely cheesy and not very engaging.
*snip*
So without any idea about the quality of the story, everything else is extremely disappointing to me, as I was hoping for DA2 to go in a very different direction compared to where it has gone. That doesn't mean that DA2 is going to be "terrible" by any means, but it just doesn't seem to appeal to me, and several of the design choices are ones that I personally really don't like and cannot support with any sort of praise.

I couldn't have written a better summary myself. That pretty much describes, word for word, how I feel about DA2 from what I've seen.
 
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Sorry I missed your points on DA2 as well; I went back through and found some of what you said, and you also made some very good points. As I stated in my rather long post, DA2 certainly doesn't seem terrible, or overly "dumbed down." A lot of it is going to come down to personal preference, such as the at direction and new animations. I do think that it is ultimately a step backwards from DA:O, but it's far from being Bioware's take on "God of War."

It's just animation though, it's made to look more exciting but it's still tactical and intelligent. That's how I thought of it anyway, opinions certainly vary.

Maybe part of my accepting of it was finding Origins a bit clunky. Don't get me wrong, I loved the game and I love tactical RPGs, but it did feel a little plodding at times. I know Bioware devs have commented on the long periods between hitting a key and the attack actually happening, and the "waddling" into place when you start a certain spell or skill. That all rings true to me, so the faster pace in DA2 is appreciated.
 
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Actually, and I'm not sure if this has been brought up as a significant point by others - so I apologize if it's not new - but there is something else that I REALLY didn't like about the demo.

That's the very apparent new writing style.

It's like they took 24 (the TV show) and turned it into an RPG. Every single character seems to be completely over-the-top desperate to make an impression. The Chantry-babe with the french accent, the oh-so-cool bad-ass dwarf, the super heroine fighter-wife, the new Flemeth - and so on.

I don't know - it just doesn't remind me of classical fantasy at all anymore. Not that Dragon Age was a masterpiece - but it was pretty competent and moving for a fantasy computer game. Bioware were never my favorite when it comes to writing, and many of their characters were overly cliché. But somehow they always manage to draw me in - well, except for Mass Effect 2.

But this Dragon Age 2…. It's like Mass Effect 2 - only worse.

I can think of no other words than… Fully commercial.

The combat I could deal with, the new art style is not a big deal breaker - and I actually LIKE the new ability trees - because they seem to allow diversity much more than the previous ones.

But the writing and the characters…..

Sorry, but based on the demo it's just god-awful.
 
Dragon Age - Classical Fantasy? -ehm- Didn't some of you get the memo that this DA universe was not the traditional classical fantasy a la Tolkien etc. It was supposed to be realistic, dark heroic fantasy, and the keyword here seems to be heroic. I've played the demo once so far. (I'll probabky play it again sometime soon) Here are some of my impressions:

Dialogue wheel: I liked it - a lot. Clear and structured choices. And it was logical what I said. And no, I didn't feel disconnected with my character at all. Whether or not this has something to with me playing adventure games (like Syberia and Post Mortem), I don't know, but the thing is that in these game the main character (me) always speaks.

The user interface: Much better than in DA: Origins. It is now clear why the portraits are in the lower left corner, the pause button or cirkel is now on the screen (much akin to BG2). I felt it a bit odd that you had to press the esc button to level up? but found this actually to be nice. And I especially liked that you now can click directly on a character to get them to move. Although, sometimes they didn't - they ran the other way, stood still, or just refused to do anything at all, I ordered them to do ;) - it was as if they had a will of their own. And sometimes they were fighting thin air :)

The interface screen with the abilities and screens:
Much better organised this time around. And at least now it seems they're a reason to why skills and abilities are in the game. It may be as complex as the one in Origins, but it seems organised in a simpler way.

The beginning (Varric's exageratted tale):
I like the idea of Varric telling his tale. And then suddenly we're playing the game.
This functions like a tutorial area where we're playing the game, learning the ropes foreshadowing also (some of) the abilities and skills we learn later in the game. And maybe, it is just me, but I like the idea of coning home with a game, opening the box, and then put the dvd in, it installs - and you - get into combat. And then after learning the combat and what you should do, you get a character creation screen.

The Character Creation Screen:
This again is one of the best screen for character screen I've seen in a rpg (or any game for that matter). The choices are lined up, the descriptions are short and to the point.

The art direction:
I like stylized cartoony games; I'm not that much into games that tries to look photorealistic. For Mass Effect games, I can sort of understand because they seem to be an hommage to the old sci movies from years past, especially the ones made in the 1970's and the 1980's.

On another, yet related note:
One or two threads at the Bioware forums for this game (da2) has been made where people have stated they they didn't know they could level up in this game.
Bioware better start telling the Call of Duty etc. players that - or they will quit after maybe 1 hour or so.

The combat:
Felt OK, somewhat similar to Origins, but faster paced this time around. Many times in Origins, I just clicked on the characters and they didn't move untill I told them to so do again, also they needed to be really close to their targets. Not so anymore. It feelt more responsive in a way. And it does definetely feel faster, very much so. The Rogue isn't a Rogue anymore, it seems. She (or he) is sort of a Ninja-character that now does backstabbing from 30 feet (10 m) away; I really don't know hat happened to the whole idea of moving silently and killing the enemy...

The combat (again):
Combat feels faster definetely. So fast actually that a dec. (stanley woo from the qa team) responded to maria caliban in a thread on the bsn forums about 2H combat. Here's the thread:
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6182904&lf=8

While Woo is not directly addressing the quickness of the combat, he is talking about the QA testing of the combat. And it seems that Bioware slowed it down a bit and bu this I mean, they slowed the combat animations down a bit - or lot. This, however, remains, to bee seen in the full game.

As for the difficulty:

I found the difficulty on normal setting hard and difficult. I died many times, especially when defeating the second Ogre. The problem was not the Ogre, but the darkspawn surrounding me. Another problem was that when I clicked on the icons to use healing, stamina or lyrium potions, it didn't work.

As for the dumbing down aspects:
I've been a stickler for smoother, more understable, more userfriendly interfaces from Day 1 of my playing rpg. And no-one has (maybe untill now?) come as close as the userinterface in BG1 and BG2. I don't feel it is dumbing the game down to make the userface more streamlined, more logical or more structured in the way it is presented to the player. Or so that players, also other players than rpg players, know from the start what they're doing, and why.

As for the learning aspects (of the game aspects) - and by that I mean learning how to play the game:
The game, da2, eases you into playing it. It has been proving many times (and as a teacher I also know this) that a) people learn in (very) small increments b) people can't remember more than 5-7 things at a time. For instance, I was playing Drakensang, and although I love this game, I got confused because of the over-whelming stats, abilities and skills in this game. Half the time, I didn't know why the stats etc. were there. Is it really such a crime? that Bioware wants players to be at ease when playing the game;

Just because you drive a car, doesn't it necessarily mean that you know how to fix the car. A mechanic looks under the hood and does the fixing for you. The point being that the rpg mechanics probably still are there in DA2 - just somewhat hidden under the hood.
 
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Actually, and I'm not sure if this has been brought up as a significant point by others - so I apologize if it's not new - but there is something else that I REALLY didn't like about the demo.

That's the very apparent new writing style.

I actually skipped all the story segments in the demo because I wanted to save the story for playing the actual game.
 
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I actually skipped all the story segments in the demo because I wanted to save the story for playing the actual game.

Oh come you can tell from a demo that the whole story is not written to the standard of say Two worlds 2.
 
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