I didn't want to waste bandwidth on the demo, so I waited until everyone and their neighbour posted their playthroughs of the demo on Youtube and watched them. Those videos alone were enough for me to determine DA2 was something I absolutely did not want to waste time or money on. Having watched snippets of Let's Plays and read reviews of it, I'm doubly confirmed that my decision was correct. So glad I didn't buy DA2! If I had bought it, it wouldn't really matter if I liked it or not, Bioware would still have my money and would make their own oh-so-astute assumptions on that.
It's really not… it's quite easy in fact. I am playing on hard mode (which can be quite hard) with all tactics turned off, meaning I have to manage my entire party constantly, and it plays fine. I have no issues with the speed.
I second this. On the 'hard'-setting, I can play the game in very much the same way as I did in DA:O. (e.g.: pause, manage a character, unpause and watch things flow from there). In my case, I *do* use the tactics-system, though all companions use custom profiles. I did this in the previous game as well.
Ah well, opinios are subjective. I honestly feel for everyone that bought the game and is dissapointed.
A good friend of mine bought it and told me not to get it. His complaints are not new to us - he describes combat as ruined, he criticises the recycling of levels and their linearity. He does say however thawt the story is interesting.
I played through the demo yesterday (played some of it at Gamescom last year) and just don't feel the urge to get the full game. What a shame. Let's hope that Mass Effect 3 will turn out fine, and that the RPG qualities of DA:O were not an exception.
Yeah so the "People who disagree with my opinion of the game are liars with ulterior motives" crap is borderline psychotic. People who say they like the game… probably did. People who didn't enjoy the game did not just come online to say so for the sake of angering people who enjoyed it. Oh no you don't agree with their reasons one way or the other? Well big suprise - if you did you'd probably agree with their conclusions too.
Anyways I had mixed feelings about the game. I liked many of the characters more than I have in any bioware game for a while. The banter between them, while inconsequential was also pretty entertaining. First time NPC party member interaction amused me enough to cause me o try various combinations just to see if they said anything hilarious. Reminded me a little of ME evelator banter without the long elevator ride. Basically anyone plus Isabela or Merill produced hilarious banter.
I also enjoyed the pacing of combat with my mage playthrough. At least with ranged magical powers pausing to select and target powers did seem viable and helpful. Felt a little button mashy playing a warrior by comparison but in a way that sort of seems appropriate. It did seem more cumbersome trying to coordinte combos compared to DA:O though.
There were things that drove me nuts though. They didn't stop me from enjoying the game as a whole, but they did dramatically reduce my opinion of it. I'll give one example of something that I noticed happen increasingly often in the latter portion of the game - where it seemed player choices and actions became increasingly inconsequential. There was a quest where it was clear a particular innocent woman was going to be attacked - and my character voiced this concern and aknowleged he knew when it would probably happen. I return at that time (by walking in and out of a door not but 3 feet away) and the would be murderer can be seen crossing the small square. My character then proceeds to stand their silently for about a minute while the murderer saunters up to his intended victim (and right past me on the way). They talk for a few seconds and then he kills her.
At this point my character finally decides its time to say one of 3 meaningless exclamations. Since this was about the third such encounter where I found myself wondering why neither me (a mage) nor my two archers seemed to be able to do anything while people they just sword to help or protect were killed in front of them - I choice "not again" and my character did a decent job of voice acting my annoyance.
Depending on which choices you try to make throughout the latter portion of the game you may or may not expierience. If you chose to seek outcomes to encounters that turn out to be the only allowable outcome then you might not notice. If you attempt to persue other apparent paths you will find yourself going to meet with people you just decided to ally with only to have them shoout "He's with the enemy" and attack you for no apparent reason.
About Merrill's companion quests
I was able to get Merrill's Friendship/Rivalry locked pretty early on. When the time came for her to get the elven artificat from inside sundermount I helped her and we returned to the city. She explained what she wanted it for and I refused. She was angry but seemed resigned to give up her self destructive quest. This happened without breaking the romance too.
Act III comes along and she's telling me how she thought that artifact (the one I didn't give her) would have helped her repair the mirror. I was thinking ok… but where is this going. She then explained how she tried to use it (huh? that thing I didn't give her?) but that it didn't work (of course not, I kept it) and the quest chain proceeded exactly the same as when you do give her the item. It's like the game pretended I made the choice it intended me to anyways.
Besides simply not doing the quest and not finishing her plot line, the only choice ends up being whether or not you talk the Dailish down from trying to kill her - wich ends up resulting in you wiping out her clan. While that sounds like a big deal it only seemed to change one conversation
About Anders
I liked this character too, though it was odd that when he hits on you your response options are effectively:
1) Yes
2) Yes?
or
3) Ew that's sick.
Later in the game he asks you to help him collect a few things. The descriptions of those items (event the names) had me guessing right away what he was asking me to help him gather. When I asked him how this "potion" he was making was supposed to seperate him from Justice and he said there's no spell or ritual he just mixes it together and 'boom' he's free. Yeah in case you didn't guess, he's lyng to get you to help him make a bomb.
You can help him gather the materials - and then he'll have you distract someone whie he plants it (still lying to you though). If refuse well he does it anyways collecting the items and sneaking past the person he desperately needed you to distract whtout any difficulties and apparently off camera from your characer. Ther is also no way to talk him out of it either. Now even though what he's doing is about as subtle as Isabela and your character will aknowledge outloud that he's up to something which won't happen for most of an act - you just get to wait because that's all you can do - let it happen.
Taking sides - some particularly big spoilers here
There is one side the game intends you to take. That is the side of the templars. - how do I know this? It's the highest ahceivement ending in the game - and because if you side with the mages they all decide to go nuts and turn into abominations. I do mean just about all of them and at once. Apparently they were all secret blood mages (even the ones who clearly werent 5 minutes ago.
Also frustrating with this semgment is that if you side with the mages Orsino will decide things aren't going well. Basically, after you defend succesfully after a few waves of templars and are slaughering them most likely the first enchanter decides there's no hope and that you are actually losing. He then cannibalizes the bodies of his fallen comrades (who seemed to have suddenly gone from being fine and unhurt to dead at his feat in the space of a line of dialogue) and urns himself it a fetus like monster thing forcing you to kill him. You then fight meredith who flips out and attacks you with her lyrium idol infused sword.
Oh yeah and you can see her wearing the lyrium idol infused sword for most of the third act. I kept thinking "uhh - there's the idol that makes people crazy as part of her sword" why doesn't varric or anyone seem to notice it… it's not small or discrete it's big and glowy and right there." And yeah it drives her crazy of course. Oh and the most ridiculous part is that when she turns on you as you know she was going to she brandishes her sword - the one you could see for most of the act sitting right on her back - and suddenly varric and your character recognize it and share astonished look. I really hoped there was a "not again" dialog opion there.
After the final battle you then get the one ending - with 2 possible vriations. All your companions eventually part ways…. except *insert a romanced character here* The other variation is whether it says you were viscount or not. All other parts of the ending are the same as far as I've seen. Any choices besides who you sided with in the end and who you romanced have no impact.
Anyways the above spoilers were specific examples but it's basically the whole last act and a quarter. You have dialogue options but cease to have choices - and it bothered me more because it appeared thi was not the original intent. I say that because in many of these enounter you have multiple "choice" icon dialogue options. Earlier inthe game these indicated making an actually choice. Towards the end they just varried what you said before you did the same action each and every time. Another reason it seems clear they intended to make these choices more memorible is that for a couple of the NPCs you can actually make a different choice or two that change the characters actions or views. For others though you have options but they all converge on the same outcomes.
Again I did enjoy the game. Replaying it though has shown me that there are only about 1 and a quarter pths to take and they all converge towards the same outcomes in the end. Just started tgo get the feeling the planned more paths but then just pruned things down towards the end of development so there would be one coherent-ish path through the world amd other path were 90% of mages are abominations. Also I wish they would stop with the reaction bars and points. It's starting to be a crutch so they don't have to have the NPC emotions displayed in more sutble ways. Also sometimes their reaction will be the oppose of what the points seem to suggest.
Anyways - it's enjoyable but if you are a fan of being able to change what happens in these kinds of games I'd say hold off for a cheaper copy in a while. There's a clearly cannon route and there's the you can try but the game says no route. It's a fun story for the most part, but it isn't your story at all and it punishes you by ignoring your imput if you say otherwise.
I have noticed the same thing regarding choices/consequences, something I pointed out in my DA2 thread over in our DA2 forum. I intend to flesh it out a bit, based on my 2nd playthrough, but the bottom line is exactly what you've just explained: The choices seem fake in most cases. You can't actually affect anything, it just seems like you can.
I'd like to do a proper examination of the various choices, but that might take too long. Some are no doubt real, others are fake. A few fake ones I've noticed in addition to the ones you already listed:
I can't find a way to save her from the blood mage.
The surviving one will always vanish after the deep roads expedition, either to join the circle/templars or because they die/join the grey wardens. The choices here are "real" in a way, as it does affect what they end up as, but on the other hand the choices here lets you think there might be a way to keep them.
Nothing changes during this event, no matter who you "side" with. The only difference is the possibility to fight the Arishok in a duel instead of a regular fight, but this duel is significantly more difficult than the regular fight. In fact, I wasn't able to beat him with my 2H warrior, so I had to reload and just pick the option to do a fight with a party instead.
There is a cave in chapter 2 where you can help Thrask save some apostates. No matter what you do here, they will still end up in the circle, and the girlfriend of the blood mage will still hate you and try to kill you later on. At least I found no way to avoid this. Thrask will also die no matter what, as far as I know.
In the preview period (when nobody can actually play the game) I stated that I simply didn't like the changes from DA: Origins Bioware and reviewers were talking about. I reserve final judgement for when I play it. Which will be a while based on what I read in the preview period.
I doubt it is a truly horrendous game, to me it is just not worth the 55 euros risk.
I have noticed the same thing regarding choices/consequences, something I pointed out in my DA2 thread over in our DA2 forum. I intend to flesh it out a bit, based on my 2nd playthrough, but the bottom line is exactly what you've just explained: The choices seem fake in most cases. You can't actually affect anything, it just seems like you can.
Not reading your examples because I am only in chapter two but Bioware have always made it seem like your choices effect more than they do. I wouldn't expect anything else from them, frankly.
I belive you guys find this blog entry quite intresting. It is writen by a former Bioware lead designer. One of the main guys behind DAO or something. His analysis of DA2 demo. Its a shame that bioware lost such talent.
Sorry if someone's already said this, but I'm just disappointed that between DAO and DA2 Bioware hasn't figured out how to actually attach weapons to the character. Just bizarre seeing a sword and shield hovering a half foot above the char.
I'm afraid to equip my rogue's bow -- Bioware hasn't figured out bowstrings yet either, have they?
Sorry if someone's already said this, but I'm just disappointed that between DAO and DA2 Bioware hasn't figured out how to actually attach weapons to the character. Just bizarre seeing a sword and shield hovering a half foot above the char.
I'm afraid to equip my rogue's bow — Bioware hasn't figured out bowstrings yet either, have they?
That is weird. I assume they want to avoid clipping issues but then there's clipping all over the place elsewhere anyway, and frankly I would take clipping over magic floating weapons.
That is weird. I assume they want to avoid clipping issues but then there's clipping all over the place elsewhere anyway, and frankly I would take clipping over magic floating weapons.
Meh. Must admit floaty weapons is absolutely one of the compromises I can take in 3d modelling without a problem. Story, artistic design, gameplay are all above that.
Not reading your examples because I am only in chapter two but Bioware have always made it seem like your choices effect more than they do. I wouldn't expect anything else from them, frankly.
In DA:O quite a lot of your choices do matter and even though they often may not change gameplay itself much, they allow your character to make marks on the gameworld anyway and epilogue slides reflect quite a lot of them (not as intricately as in New Vegas, but it still shows a good deal of reactivity from a story standpoint).
And the choices themselves are often interesting.
In DA2 you get some different outcomes in companion department depending on friendship/rivalry state, but even here it often doesn´t matter what you do (you refuse to help Merrill in act 2 but despite this her act 3 quest will play out exactly the same, you refuse to help Anders, well you guessed it, it won´t matter later).
And that´s pretty much it. Sometimes the game is downward insulting in how it treats your previous choices with exactly the same outcome later and from the "main story" standpoint your character is mostly just a passive side quest completer who doesn´t make any discernible mark on the gameworld and has very little influence on how it plays out.
And the game´s time span concept makes absence of consequences even worse and it´s a totally missed opportunity in this regard.
After finishing the game I´m actually quite convinced the whole narrative concept was chosen solely for the reason of reusing assets.
The city doesn´t change at all throughout the years and most of the story could easily play out in few weeks, not a decade (it actually isn´t a decade, just 7 years, but given the execution it doesn´t matter anyway).
What you describe with DA2 is how I have seen every Bioware game since KOTOR though, personally. Yes you could make decisions in Dragon Age: Origins but they had the same lacking effect on the game world or even the story after that scene.
Maybe it's worse in DA2, I can't say yet, but every Bioware game has that problem. They're more focused on telling you a cinematic story than offering you real choice.
Not reading your examples because I am only in chapter two but Bioware have always made it seem like your choices effect more than they do. I wouldn't expect anything else from them, frankly.
I think the problem is that people confuse some "choices" having meaning with my character should be able to stop history from happening. I already know that a few decisions I did in my first playthough could bring different results. Will they change the plot, not really, will it give me a different perspective, yes.
And I would say some DA2 decisions hit a lot harder then any decisions found in DA:O. Well, if you are really role-playing the character and investing yourself emotionally into the game.
I think the problem is that people confuse some "choices" having meaning with my character should be able to stop history from happening. I already know that a few decisions I did in my first playthough could bring different results. Will they change the plot, not really, will it give me a different perspective, yes.
And I would say some DA2 decisions hit a lot harder then any decisions found in DA:O. Well, if you are really role-playing the character and investing yourself emotionally into the game.
I strongly agree with this. If you are into playing your character the decisions can be a lot more intense, even if results don't vary as much, then in DAO. For all its fault I thought it was a great story and had some very powerful issues, for a game, in Act 3, especially if …
you are involved in a romantic relationship with Anders as he pulls one major mind fuck near the end.
The effect on the game world was there in DA:O.
You side with Bhelen, the effect is Orzammar is under the rule of Bhelen - game world changed. You convince werewolves to wipe out the elves, the elves get wiped out - game world changed.
Storywise, in the epilogue there are four different outcomes for the Orzammar situation dependent on who you helped to the throne and how you dealt with the anvil, for example.
There´s variety of possibilities around Redcliffe storyline, a lot of possible outcomes from the Landsmeet scenario (some only possible if you made certain decisions earlier, like Alistair becoming a king and Loghain a party member in one playthrough).
Etc.
There may be only few real gameplay consequences but that´s a different can of worms in my opinion.
The story itself does shape along your decisions unlike in DA2 where, for example, the elves/werewolves situation would always end up with one set outcome no matter your choices.
That doesn´t mean I think DA:O´s reactivity is on the same level as, say, in some Obsidian games.
Anyway, even if you disagree with my assessment of DA:O in this regard (after all, everyone has a bit different criteria for what constitutes "real choices" or "meaningful consequences"), I think the absence of major C&C in DA2 is twice as bad given how the game is structured.
Most of your choices in DA2 are entirely irrelevant and get retconned left and right, just you wait .
Who cares who rules Orzimmar or if the elves are still there once you leave those areas though? And those decisions come at the end of those areas. It's not like choosing the werewolves means there is now a werewolf town where you get werewolf quests. That's the kind of real impact choices in other games have, like say Fallout: New Vegas. Bioware games have never offered that in my experience.
What you are saying is that gameplay or "interactivity" consequences are more significant, while a slide or cutscene or new dialogues or populations is less.
A new shopkeeper may be somewhere in the middle?
I guess what I am trying to get at here is that there are grades of significance in consequences… We like more significance, I think…
I think one of the most consequential and impactful consequences I've played are the consequences from spirit eating in MoTB. Major gameplay differences there.
What you are saying is that gameplay or "interactivity" consequences are more significant, while a slide or cutscene or new dialogues or populations is less.
A new shopkeeper may be somewhere in the middle?
I guess what I am trying to get at here is that there are grades of significance in consequences… We like more significance, I think…
I think one of the most consequential and impactful consequences I've played are the consequences from spirit eating in MoTB. Major gameplay differences there.
I've had this discussion before about gameplay ramifications versus storyline ramifications. I'm not discounting the latter, I am just saying Bioware games have always concentrated on that and not the former, so DA2 doing it is no surprise.
I strongly agree with this. If you are into playing your character the decisions can be a lot more intense, even if results don't vary as much, then in DAO. For all its fault I thought it was a great story and had some very powerful issues, for a game, in Act 3, especially if …
you are involved in a romantic relationship with Anders as he pulls one major mind fuck near the end.
Ander is probably more tied to the whole storyline than anyone else. Another reason that I can't romance anyone but Anders (in my 2nd and 3rd playthrough... tried to romance Fenris both time and failing miserably).
.