Europe's 9/11

[txa1265]

Just saw 21 christians beheaded at once… the Religion of Peace is getting pretty good with expert video editing, music, effects. But yeah, once in a lifetime thing to see a 21 person snuff film. Maybe not, they keep upping the ante. What's next?

Nothing to do with Islam, of course… nothing at all

Islam is a Satanic cult, it is as simple as that.

So long as you agree that the KKK, Westboro Baptist Church and the terrorists who have lynched blacks as recently as 1968, bombed Planned Parenthood clinics, the Norway shooter who took out ~75 people who was anti-Islam/pro-Christian and other Christian terrorists indicate that Christianity is ALSO a Satanic cult and that those acts speak for all Christians. Right?

 

[xSamhainx]

of course! The moral equivalence game, a favorite of the terminally blind.

Unfortunately, until I see Armies of Jesus spread out across the globe killing people in the name of Christ, fighting to establish little hateful Christian theocracies wherein all the beloved progressive sacred cows have a boot on their neck (if they are even allowed to exist), maybe then I will begin to see the equivalence. When I see bands of merry Christians burning people alive in cages, and sawing off peoples heads, I may start seeing some equivalence. When I see people getting shot left and right for merely making fun of Jesus, maybe I'll start to see some similarity.

See, I look at the result of religions - is Islam good for the world?

I'm sorry, you parading out a lone nutcase with an AK-47, bunch of Westboro meanies, or 1960's KKK Boogeyman are a joke compared to the real and present-day, world-spanning threat of total and complete submission - by personal choice or by force.

That's not a philosophy I want spreading, even if it's the "lite" version.

 

[Ripper]

They have some way to go to catch up with the Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731#Activities

I could, sadly, provide dozens more examples of far worse stuff. Don't let these power-tripping losers in IS, uploading their grotty war crimes to youtube, convince you they're the bogeyman.

 

[xSamhainx]

...unless Unit 731 is making some kind of amazing comeback, i really dont see how your post has any relevance whatsoever.

 

[txa1265]

of course! The moral equivalence game, a favorite of the terminally blind.

You miss the point - you are taking the stance of absolutism.

And that is only absolutely ... wrong.

Muslims aren't bad - a small number of very evil people using Islam for a front are bad. ISIS has done some horrible stuff - and sadly, beheadings and even the lone videotaped burning is small compared to some of the awful stuff they have done to women and children.

But you are also doing moral equivalence - that anyone who is a Muslim is suddenly complicit in the actions of the extremists of ISIS. And that isn't just not-helpful, it is plain wrong.

And THAT is my point - because while you can singularly dismiss individual items conveniently, you cannot deny what I am saying - that all religions have had splinter groups that have been evil, or had groups using that religion or nation or race or color or whatever as a front for evil actions. It doesn't negate the evil of ISIS, but it is a reminder that the many thousands of Muslims in the US are ... just people. I have known and worked with many, and they are good, bad, and flawed, just like the rest of us.

 

[Pladio]

@Sam :
Because you seem to forget the past matters. Christianity nowadays isn't what it used to be, but Christians did do very similar things. Non-Christians too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres

Christians today just aren't religious enough anymore to do these kinds of things in the name of Jesus and most Christians are closer to Humanists than Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_Massacre

Or even between Christians ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion

You do not seem to understand that Islam of today is just in the same phase Christianity was just a bit more than a century ago.

Beheadings were commonplace in Europe and the last one took place just 35 years ago in France:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapitation#Guillotine

You also seem to be mixing the politics of it with the religion.

You seem to fail to realise that many countries in the Middle East are against ISIS.

ISIS is more a political movement than anything else trying to absorb as much land as possible. The only thing they do is is use religion to increase fervour.

The main reason they get so many followers is because the Shia government backed by the US in Iraq completely cast a shadow over the Sunni population and they feel like the only way to get back in power is to follow the ISIS idea of a Sunni Caliphate.

So all in all, you have a very simplistic view of a geopolitical problem where even people who understand the region are not sure how to read.

 

[Ripper]

…unless Unit 731 is making some kind of amazing comeback, i really dont see how your post has any relevance whatsoever.

My point is that you lot are verging on hysteria, banging on about "satanic cults" and "real and present-day, world-spanning threat of total and complete submission", and need some perspective.

The atrocities committed by other faiths and cultures, right up to present times, dwarf the activities of these arseholes. Stuff that went on in Serbia/Croatia, in South America, in Rwanda and the Congo - even worse stuff on a far greater scale.

IS and the losers that follow them, are trying to exploit the media to amplify their nasty crimes, to convince the world they are much bigger and scarier than they are. And you guys are helping.

 

[xSamhainx]

Islam does not need any help from me. It's getting all the help it needs, surprisingly from the most liberal and progressive people on earth, in the name of "tolerance". Only time will tell of course, and as the flash points are set alight by the "handful of bad apples" we'll continue to get a glimpse of the kind of world this sort of regressive ideology wishes to bring about.

Islam is the heart and soul of some of the most openly misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, and racist societies on earth right now. Present time. Not hundreds of years ago, not thousands of years ago - today, here and now. It absolutely blows my mind to see liberals defending it, just because it's not white and Christian. Whether it's a nation-state, "rebels", or a burgeoning little population growing within the heart of Europe and elsewhere, Islam has a nice foothold and is being allowed to prosper.

Again, a nice experiment and I'm very eager to see how it all works out. Keep bringing them in by the truckloads, and letting them expand. Little communities of peace and tolerance? Hopefully so

 

[Pladio]

Islam does not need any help from me. It's getting all the help it needs, surprisingly from the most liberal and progressive people on earth, in the name of "tolerance". Only time will tell of course, and as the flash points are set alight by the "handful of bad apples" we'll continue to get a glimpse of the kind of world this sort of regressive ideology wishes to bring about.

Islam is the heart and soul of some of the most openly misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, and racist societies on earth right now. Present time. Not hundreds of years ago, not thousands of years ago - today, here and now. It absolutely blows my mind to see liberals defending it, just because it's not white and Christian. Whether it's a nation-state, "rebels", or a burgeoning little population growing within the heart of Europe and elsewhere, Islam has a nice foothold and is being allowed to prosper.

Again, a nice experiment and I'm very eager to see how it all works out. Keep bringing them in by the truckloads, and letting them expand. Little communities of peace and tolerance? Hopefully so

I don't defend Islam as a religion. I defend the people you seem to brush with one stroke as extremists, pretending that not only is Islam a homogenous religion but that also its adherents all believe the same thing with regards to the Western world.

The people cutting off heads are not all the same people as the Muslims living in other countries. Some are, but many just want to live their lives.

 

[dteowner]

The thing I don't quite understand is the lack of distancing from the broader Muslim community. You just don't hear much, "That's not us, that's just a bunch of crackpots using our name." I expect part of it is that the "Tolerance Police" are carrying the water, but I still think we'd see every imam in America looking for a camera to explain why they shouldn't be lumped in with the ISIS nutjobs. It's fairly basic PR to protect your brand.

If you think about it, nobody in the Islamic world really seemed to give two shits about ISIS until they barbecued one of their own. Even then, outside of Jordan and Egypt (following the 21 beheadings of their citizens) it's been wall-to-wall crickets.

Silence might not equal support, but it sure as hell doesn't equal disapproval either.

 

[Pladio]

The thing I don't quite understand is the lack of distancing from the broader Muslim community. You just don't hear much, "That's not us, that's just a bunch of crackpots using our name." I expect part of it is that the "Tolerance Police" are carrying the water, but I still think we'd see every imam in America looking for a camera to explain why they shouldn't be lumped in with the ISIS nutjobs. It's fairly basic PR to protect your brand.

If you think about it, nobody in the Islamic world really seemed to give two shits about ISIS until they barbecued one of their own. Even then, outside of Jordan and Egypt (following the 21 beheadings of their citizens) it's been wall-to-wall crickets.

Silence might not equal support, but it sure as hell doesn't equal disapproval either.

They did though. It just doesn't get televised as much:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ue-fatwa-condemning-terror-group-9702042.html

http://www.npr.org/2014/09/25/351277631/prominent-muslim-sheikh-issues-fatwa-against-isis-violence

Media does get the blame in many courts, but it's the people who buy the papers who like saying that Muslims aren't doing anything.

Muslims are.

Of course, being against something that doesn't affect you directly won't lead to as many manifestations and or protests as something that does.

So you end up seeing these instead on tv:

http://www.straitstimes.com/news/as...laysia-protest-against-charlie-hebdo-20150123

Even though we're talking about 300 Muslims in a country where 60% of the population of 28m is Muslim.

People live in their little circles and look at the patterns they want to see (I'm probably like that too) and cannot fathom other things.

 

[txa1265]

The thing I don't quite understand is the lack of distancing from the broader Muslim community. You just don't hear much, "That's not us, that's just a bunch of crackpots using our name." I expect part of it is that the "Tolerance Police" are carrying the water, but I still think we'd see every imam in America looking for a camera to explain why they shouldn't be lumped in with the ISIS nutjobs. It's fairly basic PR to protect your brand.

If you think about it, nobody in the Islamic world really seemed to give two shits about ISIS until they barbecued one of their own. Even then, outside of Jordan and Egypt (following the 21 beheadings of their citizens) it's been wall-to-wall crickets.

Silence might not equal support, but it sure as hell doesn't equal disapproval either.

Thing is - they have been doing it for 15 years now ... as there is a demand for apologies and so on when any of this stuff happens. Is the expectation that a certain percentage would appear on radio, print and TV for each death or horrific act conducted by ISIS or al Queda, or some other nutjob pretending to be representing Islam?

Do we expect and demand similar things from others? Simple answer - no.

And while I am being contrary in this thread - it is not because I disagree with the fundamentals ... I am however opposed to blank absolute statements - because I believe that people are people. I also have an issue with the blanket dismissal of opposing views ... there is no real absolute truth here on either side.

And none of it - any of it - seems to be stopping the horrific actions of humans against each other ... which are not isolated to ISIS, by the way.

 

[lostforever]

The thing I don't quite understand is the lack of distancing from the broader Muslim community. You just don't hear much, "That's not us, that's just a bunch of crackpots using our name." I expect part of it is that the "Tolerance Police" are carrying the water, but I still think we'd see every imam in America looking for a camera to explain why they shouldn't be lumped in with the ISIS nutjobs. It's fairly basic PR to protect your brand.

If you think about it, nobody in the Islamic world really seemed to give two shits about ISIS until they barbecued one of their own. Even then, outside of Jordan and Egypt (following the 21 beheadings of their citizens) it's been wall-to-wall crickets.

Silence might not equal support, but it sure as hell doesn't equal disapproval either.

ISIS has killed more "Muslims" than members of any other faith… and thats well before the Jordanian pilot etc.

 

[txa1265]

ISIS has killed more "Muslims" than members of any other faith… and thats well before the Jordanian pilot etc.

And let's not forget that in the US last year you were more likely to be killed by a toddler with a legal gun than by a terrorist

 

[dteowner]

@pladio and txa-
It shouldn't be hard to find those sorts of distancing. Like I said, you'd think every mosque in the free world would be calling the local news and holding a press conference out front. Simply not happening. I think we all agree that Islam is getting broad-brushed, but the "victims" of that situation don't seem to be doing squat, relatively speaking, to disabuse us of the conflation. I don't expect them to do anything, but this is in their own best interest. That should prompt much more activity that what we're seeing. Keep in mind that the first time any fatwas were issued against ISIS is after the Jordanian pilot was killed. Prior to that, crickets.

 

[dteowner]

ISIS has killed more "Muslims" than members of any other faith… and thats well before the Jordanian pilot etc.

And yet, it wasn't until then that many Arab countries decided to actually do anything with the coalition that was doing their dirty work for them. Why might that be?

 

[Ripper]

@pladio and txa-
Keep in mind that the first time any fatwas were issued against ISIS is after the Jordanian pilot was killed. Prior to that, crickets.

Simply not true. Look at the dates on these:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...a-declares-terrorism-heinous-crime-sharia-law

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ue-fatwa-condemning-terror-group-9702042.html

http://www.npr.org/2014/09/25/351277631/prominent-muslim-sheikh-issues-fatwa-against-isis-violence

The Jordanian pilot was captured while flying combat missions against ISIS. The first nation to intervene and attack ISIS was Iran. Arabic countries have been bombing them for months, including Turkey, Jordan, Qatar, Saudia Aribia, and UAE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intervention_against_the_Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

There are plenty of reasons to be concerned about Islam, but let's get our facts straight.

 

[Pladio]

@pladio and txa-
It shouldn't be hard to find those sorts of distancing. Like I said, you'd think every mosque in the free world would be calling the local news and holding a press conference out front. Simply not happening. I think we all agree that Islam is getting broad-brushed, but the "victims" of that situation don't seem to be doing squat, relatively speaking, to disabuse us of the conflation. I don't expect them to do anything, but this is in their own best interest. That should prompt much more activity that what we're seeing. Keep in mind that the first time any fatwas were issued against ISIS is after the Jordanian pilot was killed. Prior to that, crickets.

Uhmm, no. Look at the articles' dates....

 

[Humanity has risen!]

It's obvious they are complicit of it, look at the children in elementary schools in France who came out and approved of their actions. The "mainstream" Muslim are takiya enablers, who want to integrate into mainstream society and fool Christians into believing Islam is non-violent when it is anything but.

The only solution against Islam is a theocratic model, the Western countries should embrace a non-denominational Christian doctrine.

 

[dteowner]

I stand corrected, and yet you still have to dig deep to find evidence that the broader Muslim community had a problem with the actions of ISIS. All that really does is prove what I said-they've done a shitty job getting their message out.

You might also want to check on your definition of participation if you believe the Arabs are really taking an interest in a problem in their own back yard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intervention_against_the_Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant
Take a look at the right hand side that lists the participants. What do you see? Whole lotta USA and Europe. What don't you see?