Fluent Vents about the state of the gaming industry! (Pillars of Eternity related)

[HordeQ]

Keep IT Smart and Simple

Huh..never really heard it used that way. I've always heard Keep It Simple, Stupid.

 

[Sacred_Path]

As far as balance tweaks are concerned, I think it's perfectly ok to do that only after the game is released. First of all you don't know beforehand how most players will take to balance in your game. And secondly, you get a lot more feedback once the game is out than you can get from QA alone.

 

[HiddenX]

Huh..never really heard it used that way. I've always heard Keep It Simple, Stupid.

That's hardly surprising, because this new version was created by myself

I changed it, because to create simple structured self-explaining code that solves complex problems, you need to code creative, smart and intelligent.

 

[Archangel]

No software is ever finished or bug free. I am happy that companies are willing to tweak the game weeks, months or ever years after its original release.

Maybe sometimes that means that you should not buy the game at release but wait for the Enhanced Edition (WL2 for me) and sometimes you can try to ignore the bugs and play the game if it is really fun even in its current state (PoE).

I think PoE is good, games come out with worse game breaking bugs than PoE.

 

[joxer]

And again it's Obsidian who takes the hit.
Some other buggy release titles were mentioned already, oddly noone mentioned Ultima "Bugscension", but compared to bug-o-ramas in the past, Eternity shouldn't be mentioned for it's bugs at all IMO.

I'm not playing Eternity yet, but said before, from what I've seen/read, this game came out with less bugs than plenty of others that were released in the past.
It's impossible to release a bugless game. What is possible is to keep the total number on minimum by extensive testing before the release. Honestly, it seems to me that this time (and also with The Stick of Truth) Obsidian did a good job, although there is still a space for improvement.

-

Prima Guide vs patched Eternity?
Is that supposed to be a joke?

This is nothing new. Nor is limited to Obsidian - here's a recent example from filthy rich publisher release.
Sims 4 Prima Guide got outdated with the first big patch that introduced ghosts and changed some game aspects. The next big patch that added pools, changed jobs and aspirations, reworked random drops - Prima Guide for that game became utterly useless.

So stop using bloody Prima Guides! Use wikis and ingame tutorials/tooltips. Fast tooltips is not really a luxury for ages on PC - PC games have them because you don't need to waste time on rotating something nor is wasd used to emulate pathetic controllers for pointer hovering. Wikis are there because of everpresent internet where, again on PC, you can type something you search for fast.
Paper manuals and guides are a thing of the past. It's sad, but it's not gonna change.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

The reality of developing software that's as complex as games tend to be - is that it's practically impossible to test every possible game state without a small country all dedicated to testing 24/7 for years.

It's not about the industry having changed - as bugs were just as common and often much more devastating in the past. But games were also much simpler and we didn't get saturated in bug reports from thousands of players - meaning we simply didn't know about these bugs in many cases with our favorite games. Many of us were also too young to really detect them all.

I understand the frustration, especially when you're personally invested in a game on this level.

Nothing is worse than experiencing a bug that prevents you from progressing when you're totally absorbed, even if it's just a matter of waiting a few days or weeks.

I know a lot of people don't have the experience to understand that, yes, it really is all but impossible to release a game like this without significant bugs. But it's true. Even Blizzard - a company with nearly infinite resources - that often spends an extra 6 months to a full year JUST for polish and bug-fixing, can't release a game without some serious issues.

If you want to put them out of business instead, then you should all wait at least 6 months before investing - as that's around the time it takes to get enough feedback from enough people, to eradicate the worst bugs.

But you can never have a game like PoE without bugs - not even years after release.

That's just the way it is, and I don't see it changing. Certainly not as long as money is the limiting factor.

I was starting to write a reply then came across this which I think sums it up perfectly. I was born in 1964 and been playing games a long time. I didn't even know a game had bugs because I didn't have any internet to read the complaints. Even when there was the rough forums (way back when) I was unaware of it. I simply played games. I might only discover a bug if I read about it in a gaming magazine. Often I might have assumed I had screwed up something versus the game.

Games also seem a lot more complex and detailed these days which I think would increase the risk of bugs.

I also keep wanting to post that if everyone were to wait 6 months to purchase a game most companies would go out of business. That attitude (with sometimes a rather sanctimonious tone to it) of waiting to buy a game would be bad if everyone did it.

Course there is a chance if people did that companies would be forced to release more stable games ... which then brings us back to current complexity versus the games of yesteryear and whether that is even possible anymore. Perhaps for huge games but I bet it would cause smaller companies to suffer or make simpler games ... and I personally prefer complex games and would rather see that trend to make deeper games continue.

So I guess all the folks who sit back and semi-smugly say they wait 6 months to a year to buy a game should be bending over and thanking those of us who keep the game companies in business and find bugs so they can enjoy a more polished game

 

[Dez]

So I guess all the folks who sit back and semi-smugly say they wait 6 months to a year to buy a game should be bending over and thanking those of us who keep the game companies in business and find bugs so they can enjoy a more polished game

Well said. Proud and happy backer here!

 

[BrianOConnell]

So I guess all the folks who sit back and semi-smugly say they wait 6 months to a year to buy a game should be bending over and thanking those of us who keep the game companies in business and find bugs so they can enjoy a more polished game

I can only speak for myself but I said I would wait to "play" the game not "buy". I'm still glad I backed PoE, Wasteland 2, DOS, Torment, Dungeons of Aledorn, Serpents over Stagland etc. etc. but I may wait a while before playing them. I want these games made and that will always be more important than any bugs we get. Would be nice if a dev stated clearly "we will be tweaking the core ruleset post release until we are happy".

 

[ToddMcF2002]

Just my take Fluent... At the risk of being apologetic of the gaming industry propensity to pump out buggy games... The release and patch phenomenon has been alive and well since well... Forever. Most gamers know that they are assuming risk playing any game out of the gate including the risk of invalidated save games. I have PoE installed and will happily let Steam patch it for months before I'll touch it. There have been some seriously buggy games released in the past that are simply legendary today. Temple of Elemental Evil tops my list. Buggy on release? Oh hell yeah. Unplayable. Relax, have a beer, play something else for a bit!

 

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the responses all!

I just had to vent because it was a frustrating day. I feel better now. :lol:

P.S. I'm playing Drakensang until PoE gets patched up a bit.

 

[Sir Markus]

Ah, you obviously didn't buy Dungeon Lords!! I won't mention Daggerfall either!!

Anybody remember Descent to Undermountain?

 

[Deleted User]

P.S. You guys are not understanding my point well, it seems. I still think the game is A 10/10, one of the best games I've ever played! However, I do NOT think the game should have constant balance tweaking once the game is already released! That tells me that the game is not completely finished, thus the consumer should wait another 6 months until it's all patched up and "ready to go!". Well, I thought the release date meant a game was ready to go?

So, this game should be in Early Access, with a disclaimer given that "things will be tweaked, changed, and otherwise fiddled with ad infinitum". Just a thought.

I also think if people pay for the boxed version with a nice manual, or purchase a strategy guide for the game, that it should mostly be accurate information. But due to the constant balance tweaking, both of these things will be useless.

But I still love the game, I'll just wait for the patch like everyone else and hope they don't tweak the balance of the game too much while I'm actually playing it.

If anything, I learned a valuable lesson about what the release date actually means for modern game developers. It means. NOTHING.

 

[ToddMcF2002]

Thanks for the responses all!

I just had to vent because it was a frustrating day. I feel better now. :lol:

P.S. I'm playing Drakensang until PoE gets patched up a bit.

Good choice fun game!

 

[pibbur who]

Anybody remember Descent to Undermountain?

There's also that Might and Magic title dte don't want me to mention. So I won't, at least not explicitely. But it was the one before the current one, and at the same the one after the one before the one before the current one. That's the most buggy game I've ever layed my hands on, even worse than the intentionally buggy goat simulator.

Pibbur who still managed to complete it.

 

[Hastar]

Anybody remember Descent to Undermountain?

That may go down as one of the worst games ever. It had such a cool box cover back then. Made an impulse buy. It was so buggy I don't think I played more then an hour. If I remember right it was not even patched. Company just gave up on it. What a fool I was

 

[blatantninja]

I've beens aying this kind of thing for years Fluent. The quality control of the gaming industry is absolute shit. Its never been fantastic, but the ability to push out patches over the internet has allowed them to get away with a lot more. Its ridiculous. Its one thing I truly appreciate about the Spiderweb games. When they are released, they are basically 100% done.

I'm not saying I'm against minor bug fixes and the occasional extra content, but redoing a game completely (like W2 in Unity5), serious stat and balance changes that make a strategy guide obsolete, or D: OS not having most of the joinable NPCs available until well after launch? That's too much.

On the plus side, I'm so busy these days that its often years before I get to a game anyway, so I generally get to play the finished product.

 

[Drithius]

You guys are sometimes too extreme for me, first this game is the best game since the birth of Jesus, and then it is suddenly a bug ridden game.

Yup.

"Hey, there's a few things that are staining an otherwise good game."

"No, there aren't, it's SUPAR! 10/10 OMGZORS, I NO LONGER NEED PRON!"

Three days later: "WTF, WHY, WHY, WTF, WTF, THIS IS DOOM INCARNATE!!!"

As for balance and gameplay changes: of course it can and should change if the developers feel it will make a better game. The game has been live for a WEEK - it ain't like they're tarnishing the memory of your long-dead grandma.

Obsidian wants to release an expansion + further sequels; why the hell would they settle for a flawed (in their mind) system if they can hone it at the forefront? Of course, it should have been tweaked to perfection and all those strategy guides would have been accurate a month ago when they hit the press. Back in reality, that ain't happening - never again in a digitally connected age whereby endusers can give instant feedback.

And, seriously, erroneous strategy guides? Give me a fucking break. You read those things once and they go on a shelf or in a drawer. That can't seriously be valid criticism on why a game shouldn't get patched.

 

[Aubrielle]

Those of us that said "OMG BEST GAME EVAR" are still saying it. Nothing's changed. And absolutely, bugs are inevitable. I recant a bit of what I said after reading a few of the arguments - it's true, it would take either a lot more beta testers or a lot more time to find the bugs, and Obsidian was crowdfunded this time…they didn't have that time.

I think all Fluent was saying was that while he was frustrated with major gamebreaking bugs that surfaced in his game, that it was far from unplayable, it's still one of the best RPG's ever made (bugs included)…the only major gripe was…changing balance tweaking after release? Wtf guys?

(And to what FuzzicalFighter said - yeah, I'd totally love it if I could cast from the back and not have to make my mage a piece of bait ^.^)

 

[DArtagnan]

P.S. You guys are not understanding my point well, it seems. I still think the game is A 10/10, one of the best games I've ever played! However, I do NOT think the game should have constant balance tweaking once the game is already released! That tells me that the game is not completely finished, thus the consumer should wait another 6 months until it's all patched up and "ready to go!". Well, I thought the release date meant a game was ready to go?

So, this game should be in Early Access, with a disclaimer given that "things will be tweaked, changed, and otherwise fiddled with ad infinitum". Just a thought.

I also think if people pay for the boxed version with a nice manual, or purchase a strategy guide for the game, that it should mostly be accurate information. But due to the constant balance tweaking, both of these things will be useless.

But I still love the game, I'll just wait for the patch like everyone else and hope they don't tweak the balance of the game too much while I'm actually playing it.

If anything, I learned a valuable lesson about what the release date actually means for modern game developers. It means. NOTHING.

I think we understand well enough.

You want the game to be released under some fantasy conditions, where things shouldn't change because you think accurate strategy guides are more important than a balanced game, and you think developers have the resources to polish forever or are magically capable of testing every game state in a game with endless thousands of them.

Again, you want the world to match your fantasy version. I guess we all do, but most of us gave that up in childhood

There's a reason I would never recommend buying a strategy guide for anything upon release. You have the most detailed and updated information available, for free, all over the Internet. Buying a strategy guide upon release is like saying you have absolutely no experience with how games evolve over time.

It's out-of-date the day it's released - and it was always like that. These days, it's much, much worse - because of how easy it is to get feedback and release patches.

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have a game working as intended, than I'd want to pay ludicrous sums for a book written exclusively for profit with information that's irrelevant as soon as you're done with the game.

 

[Gorath]

Emotions vs. rationality …

source:GIFSoup