I don't like Planescape Torment. Is there something wrong with me?

[Moriendor]

There's nothing wrong with anyone who doesn't like PS:T. In fact, you're just proving to have good taste *ducks* .

The game never really grabbed me either. The extremely clichéd amnesiac backstory was already boring before you really got into it. The fed-ex quests that made up the first hours of gameplay also bored me to death. I definitely prefer it when games start with a bang or at least try to generate a slight level of interest in you in some way about what might be lying ahead of you but PS:T totally failed in that regard.
The only thing that kept me going was my curiosity of exploring this strange world. Which is/was about the only thing I liked about the game. The setting and art direction is/was superb and some of the NPCs were about half interesting, too.

Still, I gave up at one point when the Infinity engine started to get on my nerves yet again (like it did in every IE game sooner or later). The small, claustrophobic environments, bad pathfinding and loading screens every few feet ruined it for me.
I also never really liked the excessive amounts of text. It seemed like at least half of the text was usually "wasted" on describing a scene or a setting. Call me weird but in a video game, I somehow expect stuff to be shown or displayed and not described. If I wanted to read a book, I would. No, really. I would.

So, all in all I don't quite get why PS:T is held in such high regard either but then that's just the fate of us illiterate, ADD dumbfucks who actually dare to like more action-y, open world, 3D games (like Gothic) that the elitists don't like .

 

[Maylander]

I love Gothic, but I also love PS:T, BG etc.

Also, TNO starts out pretty buff compared to the other party members, and will remain the top killer if you stick to being a fighter. However, if you want to get the most out of the game, you need to play with Wisdom as the main stat, since it not only gives tons of options, it also increases your experience gain. If you play a Wisdom/Intellect based mage, and use it to unlock Dak'kons best skills, he turns into a killing machine - much like Soulafein the NPC mod in BG2 (fighter/mage).

But hey, PS:T is a very unique game, and certainly one of those hate/love games: Either you're sucked in by the story and the characters you meet, or you get lost and feel like you're playing a crap version of Baldur's Gate.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I recently discovered in my self that PS:T is the seemingly *only* game that can claim to be an "intellectual stimulus" for me - as a whole artwork.

This led me to the thought that games are not directed to the intellectual potion of a human being at all.

I mean, gamers just wanna have fun, no thinking, please !
Blizzard and Gas Powered Games are at the fore front of this believe-system !

So ... I seriously wonder whether we are standing at a crossroad. Seriously. For the whole PC gaming.

The one road goes into the direction of mass-catering games. Blizzard, Gas Powered Games and all who follow them. And follow them they do; because this path provides the most of all profits.

The other road goes into the direction of the intellectuality. Artworks and thought-provokers which are appealimg to the thinking part of our selves.

It's like comparing tabloid papers vs. the Science scientific magazine. Or the New Scientist.

I sense we are standing at that crossroad. Dragon Age might be the last one which goes into the "intellectual direction", if at all.

Because the "gaming business" has become a "serious business", everyone folows the path of the most profits - because with products intellectual challenging / demanding, there can be only very, very few profits.

It's as if a few people go into a Museum of Fine art, meanwhile the masses go to McBurgers instead.

These two directions haven't been acknowledged by the "industry" at all - simply because this two-way thought-model doesn't go into the heads of people who are rather traditionally and maybe even stubbornly sticking to the economical-oriented thought pattern - in which high profits attract all of the moths (like light attracts moths in general).

 

[Piglet's Ghost]

I don't want to rag on the amount of text in PST because not only would that be hypocritical for me personally, it would probably lead to the impression that the Blizzard/GPG/Bethesda are doing the "right" thing.

 

[magerette]

*snip*

Still, I gave up at one point when the Infinity engine started to get on my nerves yet again (like it did in every IE game sooner or later). The small, claustrophobic environments, bad pathfinding and loading screens every few feet ruined it for me...

So, all in all I don't quite get why PS:T is held in such high regard either but then that's just the fate of us illiterate, ADD dumbfucks who actually dare to like more action-y, open world, 3D games (like Gothic) that the elitists don't like .

Good to see you back around, Moriendor. Even if I totally disagree with you. Btw, one of the really great things about replaying it on a modern machine as I'm doing right now, is that annoying loadscreen thing now takes about five seconds or less. (I too hate the Infinity Engine.)

But there's nothing incompatible with liking PS:T and liking more action-y games for me. I also enjoy more than one type of cuisine--I wouldn't want to only play games like Torment any more than I would want to eat Chinese take-out for every meal.

 

[Piglet's Ghost]

I reached Pharod and this game just got a whole lot more interesting. Unfortunately, I blew through the first part, so I'm completely lost and need to start a new game.

Talk about your bad design decisions. The game doesn't try to grab hold of you in the beginning even though there is a great story behind it. There is an enormous amount of random enemies despite the combat system being horrible. Playing through the intro with different stat distributions leads you to believe that INT, WIS, and CHAR don't do anything. But hey, now I know there's at least something worth playing for.

 

[aries100]

I recently discovered in my self that PS:T is the seemingly *only* game that can claim to be an "intellectual stimulus" for me - as a whole artwork.

This led me to the thought that games are not directed to the intellectual potion of a human being at all.

I mean, gamers just wanna have fun, no thinking, please !
Blizzard and Gas Powered Games are at the fore front of this believe-system !

So ... I seriously wonder whether we are standing at a crossroad. Seriously. For the whole PC gaming.

The one road goes into the direction of mass-catering games. Blizzard, Gas Powered Games and all who follow them. And follow them they do; because this path provides the most of all profits.

The other road goes into the direction of the intellectuality. Artworks and thought-provokers which are appealimg to the thinking part of our selves.

It's like comparing tabloid papers vs. the Science scientific magazine. Or the New Scientist.

I sense we are standing at that crossroad. Dragon Age might be the last one which goes into the "intellectual direction", if at all.

Because the "gaming business" has become a "serious business", everyone folows the path of the most profits - because with products intellectual challenging / demanding, there can be only very, very few profits.

It's as if a few people go into a Museum of Fine art, meanwhile the masses go to McBurgers instead.

These two directions haven't been acknowledged by the "industry" at all - simply because this two-way thought-model doesn't go into the heads of people who are rather traditionally and maybe even stubbornly sticking to the economical-oriented thought pattern - in which high profits attract all of the moths (like light attracts moths in general).

True, true -- but if we compare the video game industry to the movie industry the intellectual and thought provoking movies are still being made - today. George Clooney did it with Good night & Good Luck and Syriana, and many other studios backs 'independent' studios in which (small time) movie directors can do their own thing i.e. make games that cater to maybe only 1 million people worldwide or 5 million people worldwide instead of the 40-50 million people or 100 million people worldwide.

To me, it seems like John Riccitiello, CEO of EA, has seen this trend and is supporting it. There are at least myabe 1,5 million to 2,5 million hardcore gamers out there today. They need games, too. Hence, Dragon Age...and other games like that. So what you do is to make game like Mass Effect for the masses - and a game lile Dragon Age for the more hardcore fans.

Now, even I like Morrowind over Oblivion, I think there is somewhat wrong with some of the interface in Morrowind. And to me, making an easier, more intuitive interface isn't about dumbing a game down. It is about making the game's controls more accesible to the player. And that, to me, is always a good thing

Dumbing down games is to take away player's choices completely, and as in the case with Oblivion, just let the player be a jack of all trades, meaning that a fighter can be head of the mage's guild

On the other hand, Morrowind seemed to much more confusing to me, and probably many other players. You had 4-6 guilds, at least 3 houses; it could be difficult to know which quests to do and if you did this quest that meant you couldn't do that quest. Don't get me wrong, I just love that the game cuts you off
from doing anything you want to do in your first playthrough. That's there is a consequence for every action and choice you make in the game. But sometimes, it can get a little overwhelming - especially when you need a walkthrough to complete the game.

With the succes of Mask of the Betrayer and hopefully, Storm of Zehir, the publishers will see that there is a market for hardcore games out there

Hopefully...

PS:

And no, there isn't anything wrong with you if you don't like Torment. Each has a different taste than the next one. I don't like most FPS games, but I'm inclined to like Metal Gear Solid and Lost Planet because you just don't run around shooting things and blowing up monsters. You actually have to think in these games, too. Not every game is right for every person.

 

[kalniel]

Dumbing down games is to take away player's choices completely, and as in the case with Oblivion, just let the player be a jack of all trades, meaning that a fighter can be head of the mage's guild

That's the opposite of dumbing down then - the game isn't taking away any choices and lets you make the decision whether it's right for your character to be the head of the guild or not. By your definition a dumbed down game would restrict choice and say that only a mage could head the guild, taking that decision away from you.

Games as intellectual stimulus.. that's probably another major topic, but I don't think any RPG is particularly stimulating of the intellect, even the most hardcore one. The only games I've ever found remotely intellectually stimulating are the very first Myst game, and some of the more complex strategy games, maybe even gas powered games Supreme Commander (but that can't be if they're just catering to the masses with that one I guess). Building games I find more intellectual than playing them, and in that respect CRPGs do particularly well at also providing tools for players to do just that.

 

[Maylander]

Indeed Piglet, the first time I played PS:T - as I said previous in this thread - was a complete failure. I felt as though I was randomly running around, talking to pointless NPCs and killing stuff I had no reason for killing. It does get better though.

 

[Gladi]

Bright day
This thread has made me really sad. I mean it is great that we have nowadays all those great 3D objects and great textures and voice actors for everyline and in-engine cutscenes and not just boxes of texts telling you what amazings thigns are going on... But it hurts me to see that people are daunted by effort to understand earlier games. I mean what exactly is wrong with Planescape's UI? It may look like an ass, but it is all there and clickable. And what exactly is wrong with inventory? I mean it is bunch of boxes with (admittedly not very nice) character image. I much prefer it to systems like Stonekeep or Oblivion had.

 

[aries100]

Bright day
This thread has made me really sad. I mean it is great that we have nowadays all those great 3D objects and great textures and voice actors for everyline and in-engine cutscenes and not just boxes of texts telling you what amazings thigns are going on... But it hurts me to see that people are daunted by effort to understand earlier games. I mean what exactly is wrong with Planescape's UI? It may look like an ass, but it is all there and clickable. And what exactly is wrong with inventory? I mean it is bunch of boxes with (admittedly not very nice) character image. I much prefer it to systems like Stonekeep or Oblivion had.

There is nothing wrong with the UI in Planescape. In fact, the UI for the Infinity Engine is one of the best UI's I have seen in avery long time, including some newer games such as NWN2 and Oblicion etc. had.

I, for one, was talking more generally...

I don't know, Kalniel, if we have different opinions on this, but somehow I just feel it is wrong that my fighter character (in oblivion) can be head of the mage's guild and then also become head of the other guilds in Oblivion. I don't mid a fighter being head of the fighter's guild (there's a battlemage option afterall in Oblivion). I just mind that when you become the head of the mage's guild, you can become head of the thieves guild as well - or even the dark brotherhood.
I mean, the dark brotherhood's quest and the fighter's guild's quest should and ought to be mutually exclusive - imo - of course...

 

[Piglet's Ghost]

Bright day
This thread has made me really sad. I mean it is great that we have nowadays all those great 3D objects and great textures and voice actors for everyline and in-engine cutscenes and not just boxes of texts telling you what amazings thigns are going on... But it hurts me to see that people are daunted by effort to understand earlier games. I mean what exactly is wrong with Planescape's UI? It may look like an ass, but it is all there and clickable. And what exactly is wrong with inventory? I mean it is bunch of boxes with (admittedly not very nice) character image. I much prefer it to systems like Stonekeep or Oblivion had.

I loved the UI of the other Infinity games. I have nothing against the graphic quality - it's the overall design I hate wrestling with. Still, PST's interface isn't as bad as Oblivion or Dungeon Siege.

As for the rest of your post, it doesn't look like you read anything in this thread other than the title. 3D, textures, voice acting, and cutscenes were not even mentioned. In fact, the text descriptions are listed as one of the good things. Go back and read the posts (or at least read the first one) before you start spewing any more nonsense.

 

[kalniel]

I don't know, Kalniel, if we have different opinions on this, but somehow I just feel it is wrong that my fighter character (in oblivion) can be head of the mage's guild and then also become head of the other guilds in Oblivion.

Well why did you make your character become head of the guild if you felt it was wrong? Obviously my opinion is different to some other people's, but to me it looks like everyone is moaning about the freedom to transcend class boundaries as if it's some kind of restriction, which doesn't make sense to me. TES has always been about the freedom to make the kind of character you want and to play the way you want - they had to remove restrictions to enable you to do that so now the emphasis is more on the player to take some responsibility in playing out the role of the character as they see fit.

If you want a game that restricts you to traditional class choices or that holds your hand and says X must do this and Y must do this then fine, there are plenty (the majority) that allow that, but to say a game that doesn't do that is more restrictive doesn't make any sense to me. If I want to play a character who is a chivalrous knight I can, by making the choices the character would make. If I want to play a backstabbing assassin I can do that also, like in many games. But what if I want to play a character who's a good two shoes by day but nasty assassin by night? I can do that in Oblivion, but in few other games. Maybe I want to play a character who starts off nice but eventually sickens of the task and falls to evil. Maybe the other way around. Oblivion gives me the tools and opportunities I need to play my own characters stories in a way that few other games manage. The difference is it's up to me to make my own restrictions and choices, rather than the game. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Gladi]

I loved the UI of the other Infinity games. I have nothing against the graphic quality - it's the overall design I hate wrestling with. Still, PST's interface isn't as bad as Oblivion or Dungeon Siege.

As for the rest of your post, it doesn't look like you read anything in this thread other than the title. 3D, textures, voice acting, and cutscenes were not even mentioned. In fact, the text descriptions are listed as one of the good things. Go back and read the posts (or at least read the first one) before you start spewing any more nonsense.

Well, thanks for not following in my footsteps and lowereing yourself to ad hominem attacks, good to see You keeping this deabte clean.

Indeed the first few sentences were a general rant. These are said times whem a man cannot have his rant on the internets. Though it is curious that you don't hate the graphics- I hated them back when the game was published.

Though, what exactly is your gripe with inventory or UI? What are the differences in inventory between other IE games and PS:T?

I agree that I was not of fan of the type of combat interface PS:T has until TOEE, where I personally feel it is much better done. Though both inside and outside combat acess to everything is clearly visible and well documented in manual. Does it feel strange? Yes, but every new system does at first, so unless you qualify what you find lacking bit more, I am afraid I can't offer my two cents.

Sigil- hmm problem of navigation. That is curious. When NO first enters the hive outside of Mortuary, there are two exists on that map W and S. If he goes W the zone there has three exists E, W and S and other zons have similar set-up. All together you have six Sigil zones avaible to you at the beginning and by the time you open new you get an option to fast travel between zones like in other IE games.

Morte- curious that you mention only him, there are many characters with better wrought stories. But even his story has a pay-off, hmm... like in the last quarter of the game. I do not know exactly how far you have played (though not that far pointing by some other comments), but in the beginning of the game, he could make you think like that. Maybe you have not seen everything about him yet? Things that would explain his behaviour?

Conversations- Some are like what you said, some are not. Yes the game does not have "new revolutionary" dialogue system like some "other games". If you though it has I am sorry. Indeed it does not have anything beyond normal dialogue trees.

 

[Piglet's Ghost]

A man cannot have a rant on the internet? What internet are you visiting? In the one I'm using, 90% of it is rant material. If you're being sarcastic, nevermind.

As for graphics, I prefer style to polygons - and style is, of course, extremely subjective. My favorite two games visually? Arcanum and Final Fantasy VII. Icewind Dale I comes in a close third.

Torment UI... where to start?
- It's a pain to navigate. There is too much clutter everywhere taking up precious screen real estate. My biggest pet peeve is the over abundance of nestled menus.
- The right click UI shouldn't even exist. Quickslot weapons, spells, and abilities should be placed on the bottom bar for easy access, not in some right click menu that requires you to search vague icons for the menu that actually contains what you want. Quickslot my ass. Every other option offered by the RCUI already exists in better places rendering this thing superfluous at best. Why do I have to go through this just to talk to my party members?
- The character portraits on the bottom are too damn big. The important options are tucked away around a odd oval in the far bottom right corner of the screen. The icons are arranged in an illogical and confusing way.
- Cancel current action. This is accessible in three different places. It shouldn't be accessible in one. It's pointless.
- Those three little icons on each side of the gigantic portraits. They're hard to get too, you can't really tell what they are unless you hover over them, and only two are of any use.

The dialog system is great. No complaints. It's the content that I had a problem with. I like basic dialog trees.

Morte is the only one remotely interesting at this point, so he was mentioned. However, like I said before, I reached Pharod and immediately started to like the storyline. Getting to him was boring work that I was not sure would pay off. Now, knowing that there is a pay off (subconscious distrust of developers, I guess) I restarted and am going back through it, and I'm really enjoying it.

 

[Maylander]

Keep us posted on your experiences and points of view, it's always interesting to hear about how such old classics work out today.

 

[slam23]

Hi Piglet,

I'm always compelled to react to threads about PS:T and come to it's defense. But I think a lot of smart people before me showed that it also comes down to a matter of taste. For me it was the best game I played, AFTER I made up my mind that I should approach it as an interactive novel (as I stated in earlier threads on the Watch), instead of the more action-oriented Baldur's Gate series. I just read an interview with Chris Avellone, one of the creators, and it said it contained near 800.000 words, and that would be equal to the total Harry Potter book series. I don't know if that is really true, but that stat is quite amazing and kind of supports my point of view that it's really more "bookish". In that regard it also strikes me as a parallel that a lot of people can't quite get through the first 200-odd pages of Lord of The Rings. Also a shame, because only then you've gotten your first taste of the whole setting, the plot outline and who the main characters are. I found PS:T also to have a rather steep beginning with lots of exposition and "getting used to". And don't worry about the action, you will get plenty of combat before the end....Enjoy your romp, I'm quite envious of people who get to look at it from a completely fresh perspective. The recent wide-screen mod almost made me reach out for the installation CD's But first to finish Mass Effect and Indiana Jones LEGO
Greetings Slam23

 

[purpleblob]

If I wanted to read a book, I would. No, really. I would.

couldn't agree with you more. 800,000 words?? holy shit. all this talk about PS:T kinda tempted me to replay PS:T to see if it is as horrible as I think it is (since I've only played it once, skipped most of dialogues and relied on walkthrough) but.... I have a feeling I will probably give up within a day again.

 

[GothicGothicness]

No wounder it didn't pay off in terms of money, imagine how much it costed to write all those words! and localization to other marktes??? the translation costed would be unimaginable.

 

[Piglet's Ghost]

It seems like I was just looking at PST the wrong way. It's more of an interactive novel. There's not true choices, only illusions, because most boil down to "be generous"/"be a bully" and "do the quest this way"/"skip the quest." You're following a story that's on rails with a few stops at the station so you can stretch your legs (linear sidequests that are in direct relation to the main plot). The main characters cannot die unless the plot dictates it, otherwise they can be easily revived with no ill effects. Combat is shallow, easy, and essentially pointless. You have a host of followers that add themselves automatically and can never leave unless the plot says so.

To tell you the truth, it's more JRPG than CRPG. Even the JRPG cutscenes are there, only in PST you play them out instead of just watching.

However, looking at it in this new way, I am enjoying it. The story and characters are amazing. The backstory is engrossing. I'm soaking up all the information and finding it hard to break away from the game, waiting in anticipation for what's going to happen next.

It's good.