I've tried, but I just can't stomach the older classics

[JemyM]

I have to agree with fatBastard() on that one. Games have a better narrative than books and movies as far as I concern since they have both video, audio and interactivity. Im not looking much for a challenge, but rather an experience. If I want a challenge, I simply live life. Games are a way for me to get away from that.

 

[JDR13]

You should all be arrested!

The fact that you're discussing "classics" and haven't mentioned System Shock is an outright crime.

 

[xSamhainx]

as abhorrent as those old titles always seem to appear to me (as well as some of the newer low-tech ones such as Avernum and such) I'll admit that I am curious about the Ravenloft one I heard about in this thread. There was a Ravenloft game?

I guess that I need to get educated by reading a few threads I dug up real quick. As much as I dont want to play them, I'm still curious about them and their evolution, I gues theyre like us modern rpg geek's heritage or something.

**grabs huge tiger-size cup of green tea and settles in for a history lesson**

some site

Gamasutras history of crpgs

part two

pt 3

 

[Zloth]

Ah yes, the Old Ones, the ones who came before!! Yeah, they reek by today's standards. You'll often hear old coots like me talk about how wonderful those games were and how today's games just don't have the "magic" of the old games. Some things to keep in mind:

1. Before these games came out, we had *NO* graphics. Heck, there were hardly even any fantasy style movies. Just books and the pen & paper games. 8 bit color leaves 0 bit color in the dust. (Yes Infocom, really it does.)

2. It's a lot easier to remember fun things than not-fun things. The first game I bought for myself was Ultima 2. The only bug I remember in the game was that capturing a pirate ship could duplicate the ship, making it easy to get hundreds of ships if you wanted. The only reason I remember that is because it was fun to get lots of them and build bridges out of ships. Were there other bugs? I'm sure there were lots but I've forgotten them all. Time makes the heart grow fonder and all that.

3. They were NEW! When you look back at a game now you see the lack of an auto-map or a quest journal. When we played them then, we didn't miss those things because we never had them! And all those cliche quests weren't cliche back then, they were new ideas!

 

[Guest]

The only problem for me now is which oldie should I play next:
World of Aden: Thunderscape, Albion, Ultima Underworld 1, Eye of the Beholder series, Dragonwars or perhaps I should start with the Savage Frontier games?
I'm starting to lean towards dragonwars, cause from what I've read - it seems very interesting.
And yes, I have a legitimate, recently bought copy of all of the above- AND a real machine to play them with. no questionable abandonware zips or emulators for me, thank you very much. And don't even get me started on those widescreen LCD's...
*mumbles something about heretics and blasphemy*

Where are the ancient ones, who were there when ultima 1 was released, when you need them?!
I'm just a lone youngster here, battling a horde of heretics! HOLD THE LINE!!!

 

[GothicGothicness]

Albion is a great game, so is UU 1 , you'll have a great time in front of you!

 

[Dasale]

I have to agree with fatBastard() on that one. Games have a better narrative than books and movies as far as I concern since they have both video, audio and interactivity. Im not looking much for a challenge, but rather an experience. If I want a challenge, I simply live life. Games are a way for me to get away from that.

Cough Cough, I can appreciate provocation but is it one? Too many young people just don't read anymore.

That's such a piety, throw movies and game crap in trash, if you want great narrative search through books, absolutely nothing match a book and your imagination to setup up the best narrative.

 

[Dasale]

Albion is a great game, so is UU 1 , you'll have a great time in front of you!

And Citadel: Adventure of the Crystal Keep. Well through an emulator, but I don't know what price could be a Mac Plus, perhaps less than the price of a game.

 

[zakhal]

I have to agree with fatBastard() on that one. Games have a better narrative than books and movies as far as I concern since they have both video, audio and interactivity. Im not looking much for a challenge, but rather an experience. If I want a challenge, I simply live life. Games are a way for me to get away from that.

Well said. Agree 100% especially about the experience part.

The only problem for me now is which oldie should I play next:
World of Aden: Thunderscape, Albion, Ultima Underworld 1, Eye of the Beholder series, Dragonwars or perhaps I should start with the Savage Frontier games?I'm starting to lean towards dragonwars, cause from what I've read - it seems very interesting.
And yes, I have a legitimate, recently bought copy of all of the above-

I own all of those too (3 copies of uu1). If possible I always buy abandonware games too - its not like they cost much anyways.

Dragonwars is the one I would choose too - its the oldest.

And don't even get me started on those widescreen LCD's...
*mumbles something about heretics and blasphemy*

Well thers certain charm in playing say 4/16-color 320x resolution classic with 4000€ hardware. Besides those old tubemonitors make my eyes hurt (and they are too big to fit anywhere).

As long as the story / game mechanics stays the same (or are superior !) I dont really care if the outlook is faithful to the original or not. Original version is not always the best imho.

 

[Dasale]

as abhorrent as those old titles always seem to appear to me (as well as some of the newer low-tech ones such as Avernum and such) I'll admit that I am curious about the Ravenloft one I heard about in this thread. There was a Ravenloft game?

I guess that I need to get educated by reading a few threads I dug up real quick. As much as I dont want to play them, I'm still curious about them and their evolution, I gues theyre like us modern rpg geek's heritage or something.

**grabs huge tiger-size cup of green tea and settles in for a history lesson**

some site

Gamasutras history of crpgs

part two

pt 3

The Matt Barton overview is quite interesting and certainly the less questionable I've seen. The third part mixing CRPG from 1994 to modern is a little artificial but he wanted drag 1990-93 CRPG into his golden age (85-93). Also he starts modern age in 2002 by linking it to Neverwinter Night 1. There's a logic but not that much when you see that in 2001 there was already Gothic 1, Vampire: The Masquerade and even Summoner, all three jumping fully into modern 3D approach.

Anyway that's this sort of article that could raise interest to old games and even if it's more a garbage the topic "Top 10 CRPGs of all time" in this forum is interesting to browse from this point of view.

I didn't knew the first url you quote, thanks for it, one more cool read to come.

 

[Dasale]

Well said. Agree 100% especially about the experience part.

Woo, I cannot believe you ever read a great novel otherwise you wouldn't wrote that.

 

[zakhal]

Woo, I cannot believe you ever read a great novel otherwise you wouldn't wrote that.

I read books too (currently azure bonds together with the game) but books dont offer video audio and totally lack interaction. I remember seeing som interactive novels in the 80s but they were nothing compared to what computer games can offer.

When it comes to computer games even a mediocre/poor story can really immerse me in with the help of audio/video/interaction. Books lack those three so they need to have better stories to have the same immersion.

Naturally I would like all games to have stories equaling books but its not an absolute requirement for a good immersion.

 

[Dasale]

Azure bound books? Well perhaps if you try great books you could understand that it's an extreme experience when you read a great book. No interactivity can make it a better experience. It's so wrong to believe that because you don't decide anything that it cannot be an experience. You aren't passive, your imagination works fully and you react to the story. And no skip the interactive book crap I'm sure most are just poor novels.

That said, if you are too old it's probably too late for you. 10-25 is certainly the best age to read novels because you are the most receptive. After and even after 20, it's starting to be too late. Well it's just my feeling.

 

[Dasale]

I just discovered that Matt Barton had in fact write a book:
Dungeons and Desktops: The History of Computer Role-playing Games

Interesting is anybody here read it?

Pff and I also quote:
Dungeons and Dreamers: The Rise of Computer Game Culture from Geek to Chic

Dam why nobody write such book in my language or at least translate that sort of book? Those would have been by best Christmas gift (cough cough to me!) since age!

EDIT: Rhaa and:
Quests: Design, Theory, and History in Games and Narratives
That one too is intriguing!

 

[Dasale]

About interactivity and experience I played recently the remake of Final Fantasy IV. It has undoubtedly a story strong enough to generate a good experience value from its story.

But if you look at it closely it's based only on few tricks. What's working well is the numerous "friends" that die. The story make you share a bit of their "living" then cut the link brutally by death. That's the only trick that make works its story good, remove it and you get almost a crap.

But that mechanism is working by not allowing player interactivity: The player is forced to take this NPC in the team and then has no possibility to avoid the NPC death. If you let the player interactivity influence the story line you get a strong chance to break all because eventually he will stick with NPC he currently already has because of some attachment. Or he will do anything to avoid NPC death and will not have the full experience.

I don't say that it's not possible to do something with more story interactivity but quote this to show how best experience from story is close to be contradictory to interactivity.

 

[txa1265]

You should all be arrested!

The fact that you're discussing "classics" and haven't mentioned System Shock is an outright crime.

I thought we were focusing on ... aw, never mind, focus was lost on page one ...

 

[Dasale]

I thought we were focusing on ... aw, never mind, focus was lost on page one ...

Lol, I'm not sure that the focus is so much lost. Perhaps one reason people are playing old game is because at some point a shift occurred and narrative took more focus than pure gaming. Well it's how I feel it.

 

[JemyM]

There was a Ravenloft game?

Strahd's Possession from 1994
Stone Prophet from 1995

 

[JemyM]

Cough Cough, I can appreciate provocation but is it one? Too many young people just don't read anymore.
That's such a piety, throw movies and game crap in trash, if you want great narrative search through books, absolutely nothing match a book and your imagination to setup up the best narrative.

Books have their advantages, but that's about it. There are many narratives out there and those who know how to use the tools properly can weave a tale which no other artform would be able to express.

 

[JemyM]

You should all be arrested!
The fact that you're discussing "classics" and haven't mentioned System Shock is an outright crime.

Most of the thread have discussed games that are now 20+ years old. System Shock is fairly "new" in comparison.