Mass Effect - Nitpicks #1 @ Twenty Sided

[JDR13]

KOTOR wasn't a hack & slash dungeon basher..

Neither was Baldur's Gate.

KOTOR followed the BG2 formula in that regard, which have been standard ever since. In both Jade Empire, Neverwinter Nights II, Mask of the Betrayer and Mass Effect this "moving between minor areas" formula is repeated. The middle part of ME tried to be a cure of this but failed. Storm of Zehir is the first attempt to move back into a more free-roaming landscape. I wouldn't note that issue in a thread that complains over a game with the same flaw. Try to compare Baldur's Gate I with the middle part of ME if you like to debate free exploration...

I don't follow you. None of that has anything to do with what I pointed out, which is the fact that the maps in KotOR were small and linear compared to the Baldur's Gate, and even compared to BG2 to a large degree.

In BG the majority of the items didn't show up on the character at all. I remember that being a key issue to not allowing dualwielding in BG1. BG1 being a classical dungeonbasher of a popular IP had all the equipment types that is traditional to fantasy games; rings, amulets, arrows, armour, helmets, shields etc. Sci-Fi games rarely have that range of items and there are some reasons for this. First one is the lack of magic items, then in most Sci-FI IP's Armour doesn't stop blasters....

You're using semantics vs facts here again. Who says Sci-Fi games can't have as much a variety of items? Bottom line.....it was down-sized.

 

[JemyM]

I love both KotOR 1 and 2. In fact, they're among my all time favourite RPGs. However, the inventory system is not better than any other console port. Mass Effect has a very similar system (for every "slot" you select, you get a list of all items you currently have to fill that slot).
Both ME and KotOR has a fairly clumsy interface compared to PC RPGs. I wouldn't rate one over the other, they're both "on the cutting edge of average", as Doug put it (King of Queens).

KOTOR had 9 slots (Implant, Visor, Bracers, 2xShield, Armour, 2x Hands and Belt)
ME had 2-4 based on class (Weapon, Armour, Biotic Implant & Omni-Tool)

Armour and weapons could be upgraded in both games.

In KOTOR each slot could be filled with different kinds of items with different kind of bonuses. You could usually turn around a tough battle by going over your equipment and making sure you have the right shields, the right bonuses and deal the right kind of damage etc. Based on class and your character it made a real difference if you got a +5 dex bonus or a +5 charisma bonus on a certain item. Inventory "setups" could be matching your skill/feat collection to enhance your advantages even further, or to repair your shortcomings.

In ME you rarely had the need to change weapon/armour. The one with the highest damage/damageresistance was usually the best one for every occasion. The only exception was that some weapons had better heat resistance than others, which might have made a difference. Many realized early on that Pistols was the best weapon in the game and that there were little real advantage of using anything else. The only thing you could actually change based on fight was the customizations. This was usually about swapping between ammo that did bonus to biotics and ammo that did bonus to organics.

 

[Dhruin]

And of all RPG's you find that enough to count KOTOR's inventory system to the bad ones?

Hey, you're the one that claimed it was as good as Baldur's Gate's. It may be better than others but that wasn't your claim.

I enjoyed KotOR enough but recycling the same characters (Imoen -> Mission, Jaheira -> Bastila etc), having a number of areas that consisted of nothing more than two intersecting corridors and removing strategic movement in combat definitely drops it below BG2 for me.

 

[JemyM]

Neither was Baldur's Gate.

It is. It just happen to be a hack & slash dungeonbasher with a story. Dungeons & Dragons is based on a game formula in which combat strategy and collecting points are core game mechanics. It's design is based on how many fights you can endure and how much rest you need etc.

I don't follow you. None of that has anything to do with what I pointed out, which is the fact that the maps in KotOR were small and linear compared to the Baldur's Gate, and even compared to BG2 to a large degree.

I find it an unfair comparison based on context with the current discussion, considering BG2 is a much larger game to the game in topic (ME) and BG pulls of free-roaming better than the game in topic (ME). You could probably find many things better in BG2 than KOTOR, but that doesn't make KOTOR so inferior that you shouldn't be able to compare KOTOR and ME and find that KOTOR is overall a more advanced game.

You're using semantics vs facts here again. Who says Sci-Fi games can't have as much a variety of items? Bottom line.....it was down-sized.

How about reality?

You are free to come up with examples of Sci-Fi games with more inventory variety than KOTOR, until then I rest my case.

 

[Maylander]

I do not swap gear in KotOR any more than I swap gear in Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect, or any other RPG. The items with the highest stats wins. What's new about that? In a game like World of Warcraft, item swapping can make a real difference, but in single player games that's hardly the case.

Various enemies in KotOR do not require different gear setups. If your setup works on one of them, it works on all. Same as Mass Effect, Jade Empire, Nox, Gothic, Arcanum, and everything inbetween.

 

[JemyM]

I enjoyed KotOR enough but recycling the same characters (Imoen -> Mission, Jaheira -> Bastila etc)

Every teenage girl and every idealistic middle-aged woman you met in real life are recycled then?

Humanity have a limited amount of traits. Simply because you can recognize similar traits in two completely different indivuals doesn't make them recycled. The differences between the characters you compare above are quite great.

having a number of areas that consisted of nothing more than two intersecting corridors and removing strategic movement in combat definitely drops it below BG2 for me.

I adressed this to JDR13 above. If you want to compare area design and combat strategy in a thread about ME, I would say that KOTOR beats ME, even if BG2 is a larger game based on a system that was originally a strategy game.

 

[JDR13]

It is. It just happen to be a hack & slash dungeonbasher with a story. Dungeons & Dragons is based on a game formula in which combat strategy and collecting points are core game mechanics. It's design is based on how many fights you can endure and how much rest you need etc.
.

No...it's not. The 2 games use the same D20 combat system, so is KotOR a Sci-Fi "basher".

I find it an unfair comparison based on context with the current discussion, considering BG2 is a much larger game to the game in topic (ME) and BG pulls of free-roaming better than the game in topic (ME). You could probably find many things better in BG2 than KOTOR, but that doesn't make KOTOR so inferior that you shouldn't be able to compare KOTOR and ME and find that KOTOR is overall a more advanced game..

Why is it unfair? Because you don't like the facts I pointed out? The context of the thread has nothing to do with that. I never said that KotOR was inferior, just that it took a step backwards in many aspects. I listed those aspects, and nothing has been said that changes those facts.

How about reality?

You are free to come up with examples of Sci-Fi games with more inventory variety than KOTOR, until then I rest my case.

The reality is that you're debating like a fanboi right now. What do other Sci-fi games have to do with the fact that KotOR was a step backwards in terms of variety when compared to Baldur's Gate?

 

[JemyM]

I do not swap gear in KotOR any more than I swap gear in Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect, or any other RPG. The items with the highest stats wins. What's new about that? In a game like World of Warcraft, item swapping can make a real difference, but in single player games that's hardly the case.

ME is the only RPG's I can remember from bioware that boils down to "highest stat wins", which I consider to be poor RPG design. In KOTOR you have to account for criticals, dualwielding, hitchance, damagetype, skillbonuses as well as your lightsaber form. In BG you have the traditional elemental damage damage system to look at. In both systems I carried several replacement items with me to give a tactical advantage based on whatever foe I was up against.

Go to GameFAQ's and have a look at the guides that specifically deal with strategies, specifically character optimization and items. There's a very good reason for the difference in amount between Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect, and that reason is simply that item optimization in ME is a "highest damage wins" nobrainer.

I am starting to wonder if I am the only one that have numbercrunched theese games for optimum strategies.

 

[JemyM]

No...it's not. The 2 games use the same D20 combat system, so is KotOR a Sci-Fi "basher".

The d20 character/combat is capable of large scale conflicts if you expand the system in that direction, but Dungeons & Dragons world and gamestyle is specifically and originally set up to be a "kick in the door, waste the monsters" type of game. You should compare the AD&D manual with the Star Wars d20 rulebook regarding that one. In D&D you have a whole range of spells and specific classes that are based on crowdcontrol and areakills, mechanics you barely have in SW. Bashing monster hordes simply isn't the style of most modern d20 titles.

Why is it unfair? Because you don't like the facts I pointed out? The context of the thread has nothing to do with that. I never said that KotOR was inferior, just that it took a step backwards in many aspects. I listed those aspects, and nothing has been said that changes those facts.

In that case I agree that KOTOR is a smaller game than BG2 and less free roaming, if that would help you get back to the topic. It would be more interesting if you could acknowledge the differences between BG2/ME or KOTOR/ME.

The reality is that you're debating like a fanboi right now. What do other Sci-fi games have to do with the fact that KotOR was a step backwards in terms of variety when compared to Baldur's Gate?

I am debating based on numberchrunching, gamedesign and storytelling. And I still disagree that KOTOR was a step down from BG when it comes to the depth of the inventory system. KOTOR wasn't a conscious dumbed down system but a well planned system. Both fulfill my expectations when it comes to an advanced and customizeable system for their specific genrés.

 

[Benedict]

Various enemies in KotOR do not require different gear setups. If your setup works on one of them, it works on all. Same as Mass Effect, Jade Empire, Nox, Gothic, Arcanum, and everything inbetween.

I actually found mass effect quite good for that, at least in terms of swapping anti-organic for anti-machine rounds.

 

[Kostas]

@JDR
Why do you hate KotOR that much?
I can find more than 50 threads that you say how bad this game is.

 

[JemyM]

I actually found mass effect quite good for that, at least in terms of swapping anti-organic for anti-machine rounds.

That's the only weaponswapping I did. I dropped "highest damage" weapons on each of my companions while trying to find 3 each of the highest booster of damage vs biotics/organics that I could find. Everytime you went to a mission, the first thing you did was to locate the first red spot on the map, go there, and once you saw what opponent you were facing, you swapped between +vs organics and +vs biotics if required.

 

[Maylander]

Whether or not you dualwield comes down to playstyle, just like shotguns, pistols, assault rifles and sniper rifles. As for the other stats, they're fairly easy to min/max, meaning you can go through the whole game with almost the same gear. A lightsaber is a lightsaber, and the only replacing of gear I ever do is upgrade the gems in the lightsabers I use (most of those gems are fairly obvious, like the dragon thingy from the desert, the blue/orange crystals from the special vendor at the space station, etc).

And when does anyone ever replace gear in Baldur's Gate 2? You max out a weapon type or two, find the best weapons of those types, and then you're done. I can max out my characters by the end of Act 2 in most cases (Helmet of Balduran, Celestial Fury, Red Dragon Armor, Bracers of Dex, Belt of 19 STR, Robe of Vecna, and so on). Such items will last aaaall the way through the game, from Bodhi to Melissan.

I have to admit I find this whole argument a bit silly. It's obvious that you simply don't like ME, and that's fine (matter of taste), so let's leave it at that. I've never heard anyone talking about needing different sets of gear for different situations as a good or bad thing in RPGs. My all time fav RPGs include games like:
- PS:T: Very simple itemization (main character can't even wear armor).
- BG1+2: As mentioned above, you can deck your char out in (nearly) maxed gear almost immediately if you know where to look.
- Gothic1+2: Itemization? Huh? About five "tiers" of armor depending on what camp you join, combined with two rings, necklace and weapons. All values are obvious: Damage, armor, magic resistance. Higher values win. No swapping whatsoever.

 

[Zaleukos]

Havent tried ME, but what except for the sorting by cathegory (or slot the equipment fits into) does KOTOR inventory management have going for it? It is functional but by no means good and I would label it as extremely bare-bones. You cant even equip stuffs directly from the invontory. BG:s inventory management was also pretty basic, but you could at least see your entire inventory on one screen and simply double-click an item to equip it.

I find KOTOR a great and very enjoyable game but the interface suffers from severe consolitis (but this is worse in the combat interface where you scroll through up to 10 force powers to get to the one you want to use and cant configure hotkeys), and except for character customisation (which is hard to do worse than 2nd edition AD&D) the tactical aspects are seriously unimpressive compared to Baldurs Gate... That is however a fault of the engine more than anything, the infinity engine was built for squad based tactical combat. Maybe RPGs should look even more to squad-based shooters for tactical combat?

 

[wolfing]

those must be some nice rose coloured glasses ay JemyM? you must be a star wars fan to think that kotor, which took a known mythology versus mass effect which came up with it own was somehow a better sci-rpg.

Then I must be using the same rose colored glasses. Kotor 1 was 300 trillion times better than ME... ok, maybe I'm exagerating... 150 billion times better is more accurate.

 

[wolfing]

That's the only weaponswapping I did. I dropped "highest damage" weapons on each of my companions while trying to find 3 each of the highest booster of damage vs biotics/organics that I could find. Everytime you went to a mission, the first thing you did was to locate the first red spot on the map, go there, and once you saw what opponent you were facing, you swapped between +vs organics and +vs biotics if required.

Another thing why I think ME is much closer to a shooter than an RPG. I never bothered to switch anything, never bothered advancing my level and always forgot about assigning points (so usually I had like 15 points to assign when I remembered), or using any of the learned abilities, yet I finished the game twice without any difficulty.

 

[JemyM]

Havent tried ME, but what except for the sorting by cathegory (or slot the equipment fits into) does KOTOR inventory management have going for it?

When comparing to ME... Brains.

Deciding what item to use in ME means that you open your inventory, then you click through the items you have in the list. If one or more bars shows up light green and none show up in red, it means that you should swap to that weapon. After you done so for your primary weapon (out of 4 types, decided by class) and your armor (there are no advantage to light armor here. If you have placed enough points in your "defense" skill, heavy armor always beats light armor) you are done. The only thing that takes some thought is what customization you should use. Also, items in ME are numbered from I-X. If you list shotguns and see a shotgun with V instead of IV, you know the V is better. If you ask me in Dungeons & Dragons "Should I use rapier or a two handed sword?" I couldn't seriously answer your question because I had to know more about the character first before attempting to offer my advice to you. If you ask me in Mass Effect "should I use..." I can already interrupt you and tell you "use the stuff that pop up light green and keep stuff with higher numbers while selling the ones with lower numbers." That's how advanced ME's inventory system is. Not to mention how awfully encumbering that system is when you want to keep three of the best of a specific type of customization when you have some II, some III and some IV and all of them are shown in a humongous list ordered by number rather than type.

The fact that KOTOR have 9 slots automatically mean more inventory planning and it's not easy to pick between a 2d8 weapon vs a 1d8+2d6 vs droids vs a 2d6+keen. You have to make decisions wether you should rely on solid damage or if you should plan your character on making as many criticals as possible. You have also special damage such as stun that might be helpful. Wether such questions are more important in KOTOR or in BG2 is outside the point as far as I concern, as soon as you compare them to Mass Effect you come to the conclusion that Mass Effect isn't even trying.

 

[JemyM]

Another thing why I think ME is much closer to a shooter than an RPG. I never bothered to switch anything, never bothered advancing my level and always forgot about assigning points (so usually I had like 15 points to assign when I remembered), or using any of the learned abilities, yet I finished the game twice without any difficulty.

I played the game as a pauseable copy of Quake. As a Sentinel/Medic I had a pistol skill that allowed me to have a tremendous boost of accuracy and an almost complete reduction in heat during a short amount of time. As a person who are used to first person shooters there wasn't any problems in taking down a room with that combination, never having to rely on companions or tactics. Sure, I died once in awhile, but I simply reloaded and tried again. The thing I had to bother about was to make sure noone was fighting back, which was what I used my skills for.

 

[Maylander]

Yes, it is exceptionally hard to figure out that Longsword +2 is better than Longsword +1. And 1d8+2 being better than 1d8+1 is also hard to figure out.

What's hard to figure out is what weapon type to use, not what weapon of that type. It depends on taste more than anything else, just like it does in Mass Effect, although Shotguns tend to be slightly more powerful than the other weapons in my opinion (when you have high enough skill in it to actually hit anything).

 

[JemyM]

Yes, it is exceptionally hard to figure out that Longsword +2 is better than Longsword +1. And 1d8+2 being better than 1d8+1 is also hard to figure out.

Which one is best between:
Longsword: +1d6 fire
Longsword: +1d8 vs Law
Longsword: +2 vs Orcs
Longsword: +1 Keen

It's obvious that you simply don't like ME, and that's fine (matter of taste)

I like ME. I didn't like the system which was a step down from previous titles.