Pagan and Christian Holidays: The Discussion (Child of the Happy Yule thread)

[Skittles]

Jesus Christ, putting the "ick" in fish.

 

[Darthowicz_Roxorowski]

I know. I can see the pretty obvious background for that and why it would refer to christians in the first place, but what I'm saying is that I've never, ever seen anyone using the form 'xian'. 'Xmas'? Yeah, pretty common. Never 'xian', though. Or maybe that's just the codexian influence which just hates via 'christard' or 'christchun'

 

[Wicked Witch of Loliland]

But you could hate via xtard and xchun, just think of the possibilities!

And it's the standard way of spelling xmas in, like, SMS speak. It can't be I'm the only one here who spends half her life sending little messages from her cellphone, or chatting through it.

 

[dminorkey]

Why, are you accusing me of telling lies? Let us not dwell on semantics. There are no asian men, only レズビアンs and ふたなり, which are レズビアンs with ディックス.

 

[Andhaira]

When a bitch gets way out of line, such as say forbidding her man his rights in the bedroom, a good hard aciding will teach her her place.

 

[Jasede]

No tolerance for that guy. Don't stray from The Path.

 

[Kz3r0]

While I can't see eye to eye with him and stuffies, that's actually true. If you take the greek spelling of Christ, XPICTOC, it becomes pretty obvious where it came that christians, and any other word starting with christ, was in the middle ages resumed as XPIAN, XPMAS, etc, given the XP thingie used to be a kind-of-holish symbol back then. However, in the late middle ages and early renaissance it was further shortened as XIAN, XMASS, etc, though both could be used indistinctly. And XPI was used as abbreviation for Christ.

This goes to the point in which XPIAN was an accepted, and not that weird, variance on the name christian back then.

By whom and in which country?
All I see is the XP argument as justification a posteriori, I would like some historical reference.
Don't forget that he claimed that was used for centuries by the Church, even if he didn't specify which one.

 

[blatantninja]

I just don't see why anyone cares. It's an interesting historical fact that Christmas was ultimately set to be celebrated on the Winter Solstice and that many traditions carried over, but I don't know of any educated Christian that actually believes Christ was born on December 25th any more than anyone thinks George Washington's birthday was the 3rd Monday of February.

 

[zahratustra]

We are mostly an improvised bunch trying to rediscover the wheel amidst a world that has forgotten what we are and what we mean. At least us should respect the past, instead of turning it into another modern parody of what once was.

Just like Druids. Since they left no records nobody has really any clue what their religion was really like. Modern Druidism is an 18th century invention but it doesn't stop Neo-Druids from claiming bogus links with the past.

 

[Harlequin]

@ Harlequin

But we are hypocrites either way. If we say, like, merry christmas we are being so, sure. But if we say happy yule we are being the same, because we are not truly celebrating yule, we are not feeling the true yule, uhm, thingie.

I would say please speak for yourself. I do not see it that way. You can still cherish and honor the holiday without having a exact duplicate of the festivities of 2500 yrs ago. I feel it myself and I try to live by the general tenets of the people of old. Respecting the planet best I can, honoring the gods and spirits and living by seeing religion and lifestyle one in the same. And there are many people who live their lives around such concepts here in the Salem, MA area as well as other large pagan areas. Clearly there is a calling to this lifestyle/religion. For example Wicca is one of the fastest growing, if not the fastest, religions in the world. In a 2008 secular study it was found it is doubling in size every 18 months. Currently Paganism #6 religion size wise in America with over 2 million members according to this same polling sources.

But getting back to your point, I do not think any kind of reconstruction of paganism is a parody at all. If that is the case ALL religions are then with that logic.

 

[Kz3r0]

I would say please speak for yourself. I do not see it that way. You can still cherish and honor the holiday without having a exact duplicate of the festivities of 2500 yrs ago. I feel it myself and I try to live by the general tenets of the people of old. Respecting the planet best I can, honoring the gods and spirits and living by seeing religion and lifestyle one in the same. And there are many people who live their lives around such concepts here in the Salem, MA area as well as other large pagan areas. Clearly there is a calling to this lifestyle/religion. For example Wicca is one of the fastest growing, if not the fastest, religions in the world. In a 2008 secular study it was found it is doubling in size every 18 months. Currently Paganism #6 religion size wise in America with over 2 million members according to this same polling sources.

Yeah USA=the World.
Wasn't Scientology the fastest growing, if not the fastest, religion in the world?
Crowley really left a legacy in your country, and before you froth at the mouth, do you know the background of Wicca's founder?

But getting back to your point, I do not think any kind of reconstruction of paganism is a parody at all. If that is the case ALL religions are then with that logic.

Except that some religion has a centuries long unbroken tradition, like it or not.

 

[Harlequin]

The holiday has become the celebration of the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and is fine for what it is. That it isn't perfectly historically accurate doesn't matter, because we are not to be bound to customs in and of themselves; it's the spirit that matters.

1. YOUR 'savior' not ours

2. I choose to believe in the historical Jesus not the fictional biblical one.

3. But churches in most xian faiths claim it IS the birth. Factually. I went to mass for 20 years I know. When I see one minister or priest admit in front of the altar during xmas mass/service that this is a symbolic holiday/date then I will have no issue with it. But in my 40 yrs on this planet yet to see that. What they do state is his birth and alleged rising from the dead is fact on those dates. So you can't have your cake and eat it to and I am simply calling foul.

4. Please don't quote the bible to make a point. It is a mistranslated, contradictory, man made/edited book put together during the first council of nicaea. IMO you might as well quote the great pumpkin to 'prove' something. Remove the bible from you discussion, put in a real history book and then we can have a nice conversation. I don't debate fiction and pretend its fact.

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

I just want to point out that "the fastest growing religion" is a bit of a lie first of all, that honor actually goes to the Islam religion who have roughly 1/3rd the world population as thier religion.

As for us Christians celebrting their holidays on the same days, I fullly know the history behind it all and i know the divisive nature of it all, however since we dont knwo the exact day Jesus was born and the exact day he died, i dont see nothing wrong with celebrating it on those days. One thing however Christmas and Easter have been hijacked by the corporate, it is a corporate holiday if you celebrate it like like anyone else. If you celebrate it the same way without recognising it, then you are the real hypocrite.

Just thought i share my thoughts on the issue.

 

[Wicked Witch of Loliland]

@ Harlequin

I'm not talking about myself, nor about yourself. I'm just making a point on something that anyone with basic knowledge on social sciences can reason if they try. That you believe I'm talking about the festival not being exactly the same tells me you weren't paying attention: I'm not talking about the external form of the festival but about the meanings, inherited of social and cultural contexts one way or another, that you will give the actions you are going through.

And that's important because we are talking both magick and religion, which by being an ordained priest on a witch cult you should pretty much know comes down, in the end, to nothing but meaning and intention, to will. A ritual, any ritual, in a cultural or social void is naught but meaningless actions and empty words, without power nor soul. Isn't it the same, then, for a religious festival whose link with the origin, the soul of that festival is lost? Whose link to the very culture who experienced that original something and put it into symbolic actions is broken?

Isn't it the same as little kids trying to act their understanding of what their parents' world is, only without actual parents to explain to them what are they misunderstanding?

And don't take this personally. I'm just discusing something I consider important given we are in a position where even not being of the same mind we can, I supose, understand the point the other one's trying to make without writing the long essays this usually requires.

And, in any case, yes, any religion, under those conditions, is bogus. Not because religion is inherently wrong, but because religion without the meanings and the spirit is nothing but empty posturing and vain ritual.

Oh, and,

4. Please don't quote the bible to make a point. It is a mistranslated, contradictory, man made/edited book put together during the first council of nicaea. IMO you might as well quote the great pumpkin to 'prove' something. Remove the bible from you discussion, put in a real history book and then we can have a nice conversation. I don't debate fiction and pretend its fact.

Don't even try. The infernal court and all the little fairies know we tried, to no avail, already, more than once. It just enters through the one ear and leaves through the other one.



@ Kz3r0

Kz3r0 got serious. This is going to get bloody.

@ zahratustra

Yes, that very same kind of thingie. It happens everywhere in one way or another, and while it is understandable given the lack of meaning and, uhm, soul in many aspects of the modern world they should be trying to find their own link to whatever it is they are looking for, and trying to build their own spirituality around that link, instead of doing exactly the same stuffie they are trying to run away from: A world that absorvs thingies into itself and regurgitates it after drinking all meaning and spirit.

 

[Harlequin]

Yeah USA=the World.
Wasn't Scientology the fastest growing, if not the fastest, religion in the world?
Crowley really left a legacy in your country, and before you froth at the mouth, do you know the background of Wicca's founder?

Except that some religion has a centuries long unbroken tradition, like it or not.

Scientology was on the list but I fail to recall where. So I can't answer that as my research for my book is on Paganism not Scientology.

Actually Britain, not the US, has the largest per capita population of folks who describe themselves as Pagan in the world, no surprise as that is where the modern pagan movement started in the 1930s. Didn't reach the US until the 1960s.

Crowley had influence but not quite the way you are implying.

Yes I do.

 

[Kz3r0]

@ Kz3r0

Kz3r0 got serious. This is going to get bloody.

Oh you.

 

[Harlequin]

@ Harlequin

I'm not talking about myself, nor about yourself.

Fine, after reading your post it is clear we are not going to agree like I said lets agree to not. I see no point going around in circles simply to have a pissing contest. Waste of my time and prob yours as well.

And for the record 'witch cult'? Wow that's a flash back from the past. And that is a entire different conversation that revolves around etymology and anthropology. You do not need to practice Witchcraft to be a Wiccan and vise versa. They can be and are two separate practices/beliefs. In this case I do practice such but making the broad statement/assumption of linking the two can be erroneous. And I know you are going to say Gardner called it such, yes he did but that is as I said another topic.

 

[Skittles]

1. YOUR 'savior' not ours

Duh, do you think you're making a point here that supports anything being discussed?

3. But churches in most xian faiths claim it IS the birth. Factually. I went to mass for 20 years I know. When I see one minister or priest admit in front of the altar during xmas mass/service that this is a symbolic holiday/date then I will have no issue with it. But in my 40 yrs on this planet yet to see that. What they do state is his birth and alleged rising from the dead is fact on those dates. So you can't have your cake and eat it to and I am simply calling foul.

Awesome, wild generalizations and personal anecdotes used to characterize a billion+ strong religion with hundreds or thousands of sects.

Does it help for me to point out that I've never run into any student of the religion who claims that? Not really. How about this: Do you whine about President's Day or MLK Day the way you whine about Christmas?

4. Please don't quote the bible to make a point. It is a mistranslated, contradictory, man made/edited book put together during the first council of nicaea. IMO you might as well quote the great pumpkin to 'prove' something. Remove the bible from you discussion, put in a real history book and then we can have a nice conversation. I don't debate fiction and pretend its fact.

God forbid somebody express his faith--you have to stamp that shit out.

Politely, where the Hell do you think the belief system you practice came from? It isn't a man made and edited set of teachings and writings? Are your spiritual teachings histories?

 

[Wicked Witch of Loliland]

@ Harlequin

Considering it came from a left handed witch, the 'witch cult' part was meant as a compliment. As long as you ask me Wiccans should do less Goddess worship and more jerk cursing, but that's just me.

 

[Harlequin]

I just want to point out that "the fastest growing religion" is a bit of a lie first of all, that honor actually goes to the Islam religion who have roughly 1/3rd the world population as thier religion.

As for us Christians celebrting their holidays on the same days, I fullly know the history behind it all and i know the divisive nature of it all, however since we dont knwo the exact day Jesus was born and the exact day he died, i dont see nothing wrong with celebrating it on those days. One thing however Christmas and Easter have been hijacked by the corporate, it is a corporate holiday if you celebrate it like like anyone else. If you celebrate it the same way without recognising it, then you are the real hypocrite.

Just thought i share my thoughts on the issue.

So let me get this strait (and this is the crux of my issue) you take issue with the corps 'hijacking' xmas from the church but its ok that the church hijacked it itself? This double standard by the xians is my real issue. THEY stole it themselves but apparently because they stole it for so long the statue if limitations kicks it it seems so its all good. Who cares they used torture, murder, mock trials and intimidation to do so to 'convert' non xians. Seems the argument is 'we stole it for so long its ours now, so tough'

On a related note, I have to say though some xian leaders do see errors of the past and admit such without arrogantly taking the view I stated above. A local xian church leader here in Salem sat down with the Pagan/Witch leaders and apologizes for the atrocities committed in the past. It was a very emotional meeting and more then one tear was shed. He did this to reach out to the pagan community as a olive branch as we both have to live in the same community and its best to do so peacefully than with tension. That minister I give a great deal of respect for and if more churches and xians followed his lead of live and let live even if a different belief this world would be a much better place.