Risen 2 - First Screens!

[Anderson]

Interesting. Really a PS3 version too. Where did you read that Wizarbox is handling it?

I would speculate that there is a huge correlation between available budget and port quality.

Wizarbox isn't officially confirmed, but it sounds plausible. A gamer named Andre Feroi on the Deep Silver forums said it:

Wizarbox is in charge of porting the game to XBOX ands PS3.

Feroi isn't employed by any of the main parties, but he seems pretty knowledgeable -- he follows the Russian WoR site carefully, has been in communication with PB, has kept info under wraps for them, etc. You can read more here, if you like:

http://forum.deepsilver.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-51204.html

 

[JDR13]

Is that a cliche in the RPG field? I know it's a cliche for film and in FPS games, but have there been a lot of RPGs with alcoholic leads?

It's an old, tired cliche in general. The "down and out" guy, who has to overcome his inner demons, and break out of his personal slump, so he can save the day.

 

[Anderson]

It's an old, tired cliche in general. The "down and out" guy, who has to overcome his inner demons, and break out of his personal slump, so he can save the day.

I know, but how about in an RPG?

I'm trying to think of a previous example, and I can't.

 

[rune_74]

I know, but how about in an RPG?

I'm trying to think of a previous example, and I can't.

Wasn't the hero in oblivion in a jail at the beginning? I would say it's basically the same.

 

[JDR13]

I know, but how about in an RPG?

I'm trying to think of a previous example, and I can't.

Does that make it less cliche?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

More a film noire cliché, I'd say. Its better than "farmer boy sees his home burn and sets out to find the cause and revenge" cliché or the "prophesized hero" cliché or the (especially popular with sequels) "amnesiac needs to rediscover memory and find his fate" cliché. Or for that matter the "shipwrecked in a strange land" cliché.
My point: at least at the moment it is pretty useless to lament cliché in RPGs, and that will remain so until gamers become both more demanding and more open with regard to subject matters and a more literary approach to the genre.

 

[JDR13]

It's not a huge deal, I'm just pointing something out, and there's no confirmation that's even the story anyways. I could see PB using that as a way to explain why you're starting off at a low level again.

Stupid question… how are you inserting the acute accent above the "e" in "cliche"?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

That is always a problem with sequels using the same hero, true. It was rather contrived in the Gothics as well, if you ask me, and similarly in ME2, this "reset to level1".

Off-topic: I have it on my swiss german keyboard layout ü/è are one key, öé on the other and äà on a third. But you have to use alt-2 for @!

 

[Prelapsarian]

More a film noire cliché, I'd say. Its better than "farmer boy sees his home burn and sets out to find the cause and revenge" cliché or the "prophesized hero" cliché or the (especially popular with sequels) "amnesiac needs to rediscover memory and find his fate" cliché. Or for that matter the "shipwrecked in a strange land" cliché.
My point: at least at the moment it is pretty useless to lament cliché in RPGs, and that will remain so until gamers become both more demanding and more open with regard to subject matters and a more literary approach to the genre.

I think GBG is just killing it here. Guy should win an award or something. I'll be keeping up with you from now on, GBG. Great, great, phenomenal posting.

 

[Maylander]

Hmm, it's probably no accident that a lot of my favourites actually avoid such clichès - Gothic, Planescape: Torment and so on from the old days, Dragon Age, New Vegas etc among the more recent games.

To be perfectly honest, I feel that Planescape and Dragon Age has the best starts I've seen - especially Dragon Age and the whole Origins aspect is excellent, I was surprised by how well it worked out.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Agree on the Origins (although in themselves they did not completely avoid cliché either), more the pity they threw that out of the window for the sequel. G1 used a variant of the "stranger in a strange land", but it was done in a very original way. That's often the thing with clichés - if you dress them up in a nice new gown, they can look quite appealing again, just like your wife of 30 years. G2 not sure if the beginning can be called cliché, but it was certainly a severe case of Deus Ex Machina - didn't like it much, tbh. And the dragons of course were very cliché themselves. Yet it was a fantastic game.

 

[Maylander]

I specifically avoided mentioning Gothic 2 for that very reason - the start is horrible, and the overall plot is extremely obvious (in fact, you're told the entire main quest within the first few minutes of the game), but the game is still excellent. It is possible to pull off excellent games without a good start, but I don't think it happens too often.

 

[DArtagnan]

It's all about how they deal with such a cliché.

If we get a Hollywood version of the personal crisis turned into heroism, I'll vomit a bit.

If, however, we get some kind of plausible tale of real issues that we can deal with in believable ways, it could work quite well.

That said, I hardly play PB games for the cathartic process of my character. So, I'd likely prefer if they stuck with the low-key stuff they're good at.

Most writers suck immensely when trying to write real human beings that also happen to be heroic.

 

[Anderson]

Does that make it less cliche?

Yeah, I think so. It's an application to a genre of an idea that hadn't been done there before -- which would make it by definition less cliche than in the contexts where it has been done to death.

 

[JDR13]

Yeah, I think so. It's an application to a genre of an idea that hadn't been done there before — which would make it by definition less cliche than in the contexts where it has been done to death.

I've also never seen an RPG where a frog turned into a prince after being kissed by a fair maiden. I suppose that wouldn't be cliche then.

 

[SAGO]

lets hope its good, seeing the first one was kinda mediocre.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I've also never seen an RPG where a frog turned into a prince after being kissed by a fair maiden. I suppose that wouldn't be cliche then.

I could imagine King's Quest adventure games working like that, though.

 

[Anderson]

I've also never seen an RPG where a frog turned into a prince after being kissed by a fair maiden. I suppose that wouldn't be cliche then.

Please focus. I said it was LESS of a cliche in this context, not that it was not a cliche at all.

I think your example is misleading in a couple of ways. First, if there is anything that is cliche about RPGs, it is their medieval fantasy setting. Putting a prince kissing a frog into an RPG setting is pretty much piling cliche on cliche. Second, prince kissing frog fairy tales are centuries old — they are more mythologic or archetypal than anything. Alcoholic down & outer has been an overused character in a dozen films lately. Not really on the same level.

Here's a more apt illustration. What is the most cliche aspect of RPGs? I think it's the Tolkein boilerplate — the wizard, dwarf, human, and elf characters in a medieval fantasy setting. Big-time cliche, right? Now suppose you had a TV soap opera with dwarves, elves, and wizards, and it took place in a medieval fantasy realm. Would the people watching it say, "Oh, what a boring cliche, I've seen that so many times, yawn, how boring." No, they'd be saying, "What the hell is this? Where's my Days of our Lives?"

See? Genre or medium matters. Something that's old and worn out in one genre/medium can feel somewhat fresh (or less cliche, if you prefer) in a medium/genre that hasn't overused it. In fact, that's where a lot of "originality" comes from — borrowing concepts from other genres and media.

Here's another way to look at it. An alcoholic down & outer is not "special" in some way (unless this aspect of the story is yet to be revealed). This goes against the usual grain of an RPG, where you play a character that — though underpowered in the beginning — is "special" in some way. They have special powers; they are the long-lost hier to the throne; they are the son of a famous scientist; they are a prisoner destined to free the world; they are the last in a forgotten line of whatevers, etc. From this perspective too, a down & out alcoholic is less cliche in an RPG setting than in the films you've apparently seen one too many of.

 

[JDR13]

Please focus. I said it was LESS of a cliche in this context, not that it was not a cliche at all.

Yes, I'm aware you're changing your original opinion. Now it's simply less of a cliche.

I think your example is misleading in a couple of ways. First, if there is anything that is cliche about RPGs, it is their medieval fantasy setting. Putting a prince kissing a frog into an RPG setting is pretty much piling cliche on cliche. Second, prince kissing frog fairy tales are centuries old — they are more mythologic or archetypal than anything. Alcoholic down & outer has been an overused character in a dozen films lately. Not really on the same level.

Nope, you simply missed the point. It wasn't about one example being more or less cliche than the other, I was just giving a demonstration of the logic you're trying to use. Something that is cliche in general isn't suddenly less cliche just because it hasn't been used in a crpg.

You even managed to help prove my point by mentioning how often the general concept has been used recently.

See? Genre or medium matters. Something that's old and worn out in one genre/medium can feel somewhat fresh (or less cliche, if you prefer) in a medium/genre that hasn't overused it. In fact, that's where a lot of "originality" comes from — borrowing concepts from other genres and media.

As I said, it's cliche "in general", but you can use all the semantics you want in pretending otherwise. The medium has nothing to do with it. Nevermind that it has been done in this medium several times already at least, maybe just not this specific genre.

Some people aren't bothered by it, and to be honest, I'm not either really. Some fresher ideas would be nice though.

 

[Dasale]

To be perfectly honest, I feel that Planescape and Dragon Age has the best starts I've seen - especially Dragon Age and the whole Origins aspect is excellent, I was surprised by how well it worked out.

I haven't yet pinpoint why but once again I attempted PS:T and once again I found the (very) beginning awful. At least now it is installed on my computer (I still have the box but seems stupidly have lost the CD, a good chance they are in the box of another game!) and even in my native language, so a new attempt is planed because last one was very short.

For DAO the origins idea is a great design idea and overall well implemented but some origins aren't that great and I'm not sure there's so few cliché. I remember the wild elf origin just ok for me and the human noble origin better but not one I'd say exempt of clichés. But ok what RPG had a great beginning, is a real question.

Many RPG used the beginning to implement a sort of Tutorial merged to the game and the beginning of the story. For those it's a bit unfair to compare their beginning with the beginning of other not using this design path.

Now I'm looking at it, I don't see many single RPG with a very good beginning, but some with a great first part ie from a larger point of view than just the beginning. From the strict beginning point of view, here a selection:

• Fallout : But I can't explain why since first seconds I get highly captured by it.
• Dragon Quest V DS Remake : You would say me that one of my favorite beginning was with a RPG starting with a 5/6 year old hero I would never believe you. But yes the beginning of this RPG is a playing with remembering of youth, like live the club of five adventures in real, well through a RPG, magical.
• Baldur's Gate 1: It's beginning is a little flawed by the merged tutorial approach but the the evolution from the quite protection of Candle Keep with threatening showing to the sudden and violent exposure to wild and unknow and adventure, is definitely a great beginning for me just a little flawed by some tutorial elements.
• Lionheart Legacy of the Crusader : Not sure, perhaps the mood and the different setup and also the very first parts are the best parts of this RPG. But anyway it's one of my better remembering of begining in RPG.
• Ultima Underworld : Mystery, dark, exploration of unknown since the first seconds is definitely a very good remembering. Too bad that such great merging of story and gameplay isn't sustained by a great main plot or even great secondary plots.