RPGWatch Feature: Worst RPG of 2010

What earlier game had zelda's lock-on system? How are risen's or severance's implementations of it better?
 
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As a tiny side-note : When I first read the words "[to] strafe", "strafing", I had to think of the German "Strafe" which means "punishment" …
"Bestrafen" means "to punish someone" …
 
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Further, I love G2+NotR and I can assure you I finished the game using that exact side-to-side technique. I'm not a great action gamer but that got me through fine. I used a one-handed sword because it's faster (so?) but didn't use the cheat sword. The technique works fine, if you get your rhythm right.
You use it against Trolls? You use it against Raptors? You use it against multiple opponents like multiple raptors or multiple orc elite? You use it against the woman bandit leader in undergrounds, and many more?

Where are the video with your tactic? I do agree you can do it sometimes and for many opponents if you block them AND fight only one, then it is working. Other than that it just doesn't work and when it works it's a lot less basic than the words seems say because no, you almost never apply this stupidly and systematically from begin to end of fight (as you seem say or as wrote the original post).

And if you avoid exploit it then sword fighting in G2+NOTR just shine, and again it's not the system but opponents design and diversity.

In my opinion the key to have fun fights is to not allow too much the player have the initiative but put it more in position of reaction. On this base the opponents design offer a large base of variations and a better tool to not allow the player use repetitively a winning trick. This includes not allowing any click feast.
 
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… And that was something I never quite managed …

And strafing/rolling is something I actually never use(d) in games … because it is always a keypress too far away from my fingertips …

I do too… until Venetica. I used my 5th finger to trigger the side rolling something usually reserved for jump. I got in Venetica an amazing fight against two sort of monster bulls, that was thrilling and amazingly fun but with no side roll you had no chance against those. So bad that the game isn't as good in fights in all parts than it is in Arsenal and Port.

EDIT: And for strafing it's so fun in G2+NOTR and Risen (that designed opponents doing that more subtly) to strafe to dodge a rushing enemy and turn and slash him on side or back. But it's not so basic because you need time all well (it's also not too difficult). In Venetica it's perhaps possible against some opponents but quite more difficult.

EDIT 2: How the hell a thread about worst RPG of 2010 could have degenerated to end as a thread about sword fighting? O_O
 
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Never heard that one before, why are risen's and severance's imitations of zelda's lock-on system(why would anyone call it strafing) better?

Neither of these games "copied" Zelda. Severance had lock-on, and you could maneuver, dodge, block, etc. in a much deeper, tactical way than what you can do in Zelda. When I call Zelda's lock-on system "strafing" I'm referring to how you can circle enemies at pretty much full speed, and that's the part I consider a bit ridiculous; you should absolutely be able to position yourself, but sprinting in circles around enemies? Rolling around on the ground? Just seems silly to me, but I'm not saying that it isn't fun for some people or that it's a bad system; it just doesn't fit my tastes the way Severance or Risen does. Those games, IMO, just have deeper, "realistic" combat and in comparison, Zelda's combat seems cartoony and arcadey to me.
 
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I wonder why lock on is considered as a good feature. It means lock target? Auto lock target? Target locking is for me a bad feature because it makes focus on one opponent and for a RPG having a fight system good only against one opponent is a very bad start base.

Lock target has also the very bad point to disable two funny points even in sword fighting, aiming, and merging dodging and attacking aiming (great fun in shooting and modern shooters lost awfully the track of this, ie lost of dodging because enemy "missiles" are just too fast and destroy one of the best fun of shooting).

But well I can admit I didn't found it too bad in DKS for sword fighting and auto locking because it help me not lost track even when you jump. In G3 I found it awful and killing the system. In Risen… so weird I don't remember there was auto locking.
 
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I didn`t really need much time to establish that whole control scheme is a disaster. I don`t care much about the fact that I can get used to it - and I will because I know it`s a good game - it still sucks anyway.
To paraphrase you, you need a bit more time to establish the whole control scheme actually is not a disaster.
The problem with the scheme is that it´s unconventional, contains one unintuitive element and it´s badly communicated in-game. No doubt it caused some players to shelve the game.
But once you get used to it, it´s very flexible and allows for a good level of character control.
In Gothic 1, to get the most familiar setup, you have to turn mouse "on" (it may be so by default, I don´t remember) in game settings and choose "alternative setting" in keyboard settings. This results in a w-a-s-d + mouse scheme.
The unintuitive element here is, clicking only the LMB (which is your main action button) does nothing. For it to do something, you have to accompany it with one of the direction keys (wasd) to define the action. Out of combat (picking up things, talking etc), it´s usually the up key ("w"). In melee combat, LMB+s is parry, LMB+w/a/d does different swings, you can also line swings into combos if you time it right.
W,a,s,d alone serve for movement of course and you´re controlling the direction where the pc runs via mouse. If you don´t like to control the direction via mouse, you may change the function of "a" and "d" keys (serving for strafing by default) to "turn left/right". You can still use them for strafing too, just hold RMB as well.
Sheathe/unsheathe a weapon is space (or alternatively numbers if you have more types of weapons equipped), inventory is tab - familiar layout.
Moreover, RMB + "up" is for jumping and if you hold RMB under a ledge you can climb onto and then push "up", pc will climb onto it.

The reason I´m mentioning this is that
a) maybe some people don´t realize they don´t have to play the game using keyboard-only
b) and, perhaps more importantly, to point out that you can perform a number of different actions without having to move your hands at all - for the majority of playtime, one hand is steady on wasd, the other is steady on the mouse :)

Granted, some out-of-combat LMB + up combos are redundant (LMB should suffice), but given the layout from above, it´s really no big deal imo and it may even make interactions with the game world feel a bit more involved.

=========================================================

As for sword fighting in first two Gothics, the general reason why I consider it great is that it combines player´s skill with character´s skill really well.

From an action game standpoint, you have to observe your opponents´ moves and time your attacks/blocks/dodges right - random button mashing mostly just won´t work and even though there isn´t a vast array of different moves at your disposal, thanks to the majority of enemies having different combat patterns and games´ well thought-out encounter design, combat is varied enough and keeps you on your toes.
You may resort to the aforementioned left-right tactics, but even then you have to be careful with timing, it´s easier to use against certain enemies than against the others and it rarely works against more enemies than one at a time, making it a rather tedious way to play through the game. As I see it, it´s a kinda backdoor for people who refuse to learn combat system proper ;).
The video in Moriendor´s post is just an example of a player who recognized enemy´s weakness (inability to turn around fast) and took advantage of it - and while it may not seem so, it´s not exactly an easy thing to do.

From an RPG standpoint, as you invest in your char´s stats/skills, he becomes somewhat more responsive and "fluid" (when inexperienced in the beginning of G1, he holds one handed sword in both hands, for example), gets new combos, more chance to do criticals and naturally damage goes up. Weapons have different reach and speed, a few enemies are significantly more vulnerable to blunt weapons.

Together these create a simple, yet involving and varied system imo, which also allows you to make up for your char´s deficiencies with your skill and vice versa.
Oh, and I rather like how it looks - no over-the-top moves or such.

If you ask me, easily the weakest aspect of first two Gothics is the inventory interface.
 
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I downloaded the demo of Severance and… no strafing at all? Lol a system without dodging and it's the best? No surprise I never heard of it before. Ok I could put myself in same position that young players refusing learn G2+NOTR special fights controls but no dodging at all is too much for me.
 
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...and of course Gothic (G1) can be completed without using any weapons...as i have done several times....which throws "hack-n-slash" completely out of the window.
 
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All this debating about combat is making me want to dig out my copy of Severance. I wonder if it will run under Windows 7….
 
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I downloaded the demo of Severance and… no strafing at all? Lol a system without dodging and it's the best? No surprise I never heard of it before. Ok I could put myself in same position that young players refusing learn G2+NOTR special fights controls but no dodging at all is too much for me.

Dasale, you might want to actually spend more than 5 minutes with the demo before you say things like "no dodging?" or "No surprise I never heard of it before." If you actually play long enough to make an objective opinion, then it's fine with me to not like the game and say it's not good because everyone is more than entitled to their own opinion, but until you even give it a fair chance, you're really not being fair by calling it bad. Example: There IS a dodge mechanic in the game and it's one of the most important combat moves in Severance that you will need to use quite often. If you don't use it, you will die in 5 minutes. It's also "realistic" compared to other dodge mechanics in that you don't roll around on the ground while you do so.
 
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Dasale, you might want to actually spend more than 5 minutes with the demo before you say things like "no dodging?" or "No surprise I never heard of it before." If you actually play long enough to make an objective opinion, then it's fine with me to not like the game and say it's not good because everyone is more than entitled to their own opinion, but until you even give it a fair chance, you're really not being fair by calling it bad. Example: There IS a dodge mechanic in the game and it's one of the most important combat moves in Severance that you will need to use quite often. If you don't use it, you will die in 5 minutes. It's also "realistic" compared to other dodge mechanics in that you don't roll around on the ground while you do so.
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There is indeed strafing and dogding when the player has locked on the enemy. Bod is not for everyone though, but I honestly found Severance's combat system quite rewarding. It however requires some investement from the player's part. The learning curve is quite steep. It took me almost 1/3 of the game to fully understand how to dodge, block, launch combos and special moves, but that is how it should be. Weapon types play large role too. No point hacking skeletons with a sword when maces and hammers do nearly double damage.

Lastly the characters (knight, barbarian, dwarf, amazon) require very different playstyles and each one of them has his own backstory. I'd start off as a knight. The knight is the most balanced and versatile character. Dwarf is cool too, but he is harder to play due to his limited combos and reach. Barbarian is likely the hardest to play since he wears only light armour and can't use shield as all his class weapons are twohanded. Naturally he deals most damage. Amazon is the easiest choise as she is the fastest class of four, plus she has amaizing reach.

Bod is not only a great fighting game, it is also a great adventure. The setting reminds me of Howard's Conan novels. Backstory is quite good and levels are really varied.
 
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ahh blade of darkness…good times
still haven't seen a game with that immersive of melee combat
few games can still hold up graphics wise a decade later.

the devs went on to form mercury steam which produced 2 unique albiet flawed games: scrapland and clive barkers jericho. both enjoyable in their own ways for some unique experiences though neither stand out gems like severance. their website's still up so that hold promise but i don't think they've released a game in over 2 years now and no news of one either. i sware they are like arcane's similarily forlorn twin.
 
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Thanks for the info curious. I never knew what became of the devs but always wondered. It's a shame that they never made another game that was similar to Severance... I've always wondered what they might have been able to do over time with their great combat system.
 
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Dasale, you might want to actually spend more than 5 minutes with the demo before you say things like "no dodging?" or "No surprise I never heard of it before." If you actually play long enough to make an objective opinion, then it's fine with me to not like the game and say it's not good because everyone is more than entitled to their own opinion, but until you even give it a fair chance, you're really not being fair by calling it bad. Example: There IS a dodge mechanic in the game and it's one of the most important combat moves in Severance that you will need to use quite often. If you don't use it, you will die in 5 minutes. It's also "realistic" compared to other dodge mechanics in that you don't roll around on the ground while you do so.
Well honestly there's nothing motivating me to play the game and I don't want struggle with deciphering hidden commands like I did with G2+NOTR, because well Severance has nothing for it to keep me on, even the voice acting is hard to support.

But can't you help and provide a quick command guide?

EDIT: And with "realitistic" you are really using the wrong word with me, I don't care at all about realism and I'm tired of players constantly whining of more realism like if reality was that fun, nope I want good gameplay and realistic doesn't mean that necessarily.
 
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Well honestly there's nothing motivating me to play the game and I don't want struggle with deciphering hidden commands like I did with G2+NOTR, because well Severance has nothing for it to keep me on, even the voice acting is hard to support.

But can't you help and provide a quick command guide?

EDIT: And with "realitistic" you are really using the wrong word with me, I don't care at all about realism and I'm tired of players constantly whining of more realism like if reality was that fun, nope I want good gameplay and realistic doesn't mean that necessarily.

Well you certainly don't have to play the game if it doesn't appeal to you, but perhaps it's not really fair to say it's a bad game just because you "didn't like it." Just say "I personally didn't like it" and move on instead of calling it a bad game.

As far as commands go, I won't list the entire control scheme, but you hold down the RMB and press left or right with A or D to dodge. The key is timing. Use the Tab key to lock on first.

As far as realism goes, I don't mean that games should literally mirror reality, which is why I always use quotes around the word "realism." It's still a game, so I'm not asking for literal realism; after all, part of what makes games fun to play is that they can immerse you in another world that appeals to the imagination. But I do really enjoy "realism" in terms of having a world feel believable, including combat. For example, Gothic is "realistic" in that it is set in a fantasy world, but the fantasy isn't so over the top that the world no longer feels like a believable place. So yes, I do want more "realism" that makes the combat feel believable and immersive, but not to the point that it's no longer fun to play. Mount & Blade is another good example of the point I'm trying to make. Is it literally realistic to be able to slaughter 50 men with a lance on horseback? No, but the combat feels realistic, thus making the experience believable and fantastical/imaginative at the same time. The same idea can apply to magic as well.
 
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Those games, IMO, just have deeper, "realistic" combat and in comparison, Zelda's combat seems cartoony and arcadey to me.
Well, surprise :) Maybe because that`s how it was meant to be. But cartoony/unrealistic doesn`t mean "without depth".
And having no lock-on is not realistic - in real life you`d do it naturally, in videogame it`s really difficult to cope without it due to controller limitations.

you need a bit more time to establish the whole control scheme actually is not a disaster.
The problem with the scheme is that it´s unconventional, contains one unintuitive element and it´s badly communicated in-game. No doubt it caused some players to shelve the game.

Nah, I did get how it works, mouse and all. For me it`s not game breaking, but just not that great. From what I read it was meant to be a keyboard only game and mouse got tacked later on. Which shows… (btw is there any way to control mouse sensitivity in some .ini file? It would help greatly)
The real reason it`s shelved is because I`ll play it in some months when I`ll be reduced to a laptop again. At the mo it`s Risen & other GPU - hungry games.

As for sword fighting in first two Gothics, the general reason why I consider it great is that it combines player´s skill with character´s skill really well.
Well, maybe - I`d still argue it could be done better in terms of control (that ^%$# sidestep). Risen would be a logical evolution, it grew on me, and I think it`s the best system of this kind I tried on PC so far. Playing on hard it`s rather challenging, but not unfair :)

But of course Gothic`s 10 years old. So let`s just agree that:
"weakest aspect of first two Gothics is the inventory interface"
(but….I did get used to it :p)

I`d like to see some "realistic" combat on PC too - as in one-hit deaths, splintered shields/broken swords, severed limbs…etc. Plus physics, too. Sort of Bushido Blade + Die By the Sword +Severance maybe :)

Stil,l nothing does beheadings like this old classic

EDIT: Forget waving your wand ;) Decent Kinect hack on one of these games and I`m sold....
 
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I think Gothic/Gothic 2 had some of the best combat in any fantasy CRPG.

Not so much the actual "feel" of combat, but the tactical and challenging nature of it. It actually rewarded the player for making an effort to time moves and learn when to do what.

Much better than the hack/slash combat of most modern CRPGs.

Risen took it a step further, and I consider it the overall best combat system of the open world genre.
 
…and of course Gothic (G1) can be completed without using any weapons…as i have done several times….which throws "hack-n-slash" completely out of the window.

How ? I'd like to see that in a walkthrough, I'm very interested ...
 
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btw is there any way to control mouse sensitivity in some .ini file? It would help greatly
There´s an ini file located in the game´s "system" subdirectory where you should be able to control it, however you can adjust it from in-game menu (settings -> game -> mouse sensitivity). Having it on max is a must I think.

Risen would be a logical evolution, it grew on me, and I think it`s the best system of this kind I tried on PC so far. Playing on hard it`s rather challenging, but not unfair :)
I think I´ve concluded Risen´s combat system is slightly better than in the first two Gothics and yep it felt like a logical evolution. After Gothic 3 it was a relief seeing they got back on track.
In terms of enemy variety and overall encounter design I like G1 and especially G2+NotR more though.

Stil,l nothing does beheadings like this old classic
Gothics have some quite visceral™ finishing moves though :).
Which reminds me of another thing I like about Gothics´ combat - it doesn´t always have to end up with killing.
 
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